Brit Beheads A Yank

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Re: Brit Beheads A Yank

Post by JimC » Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:52 pm

The point you are trying to make has nothing whatsoever with relative risk levels between countries. Bring it up as a separate argument, fair enough, but don't pretend it sheds any light on the realities of statistical risk differentials in themselves; it is what you think reactions to that should be...
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Re: Brit Beheads A Yank

Post by Seth » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:58 pm

JimC wrote:The point you are trying to make has nothing whatsoever with relative risk levels between countries. Bring it up as a separate argument, fair enough, but don't pretend it sheds any light on the realities of statistical risk differentials in themselves; it is what you think reactions to that should be...
No, it's correctly dismissing your bogus argument. The simple fact is that the statistical risk of criminal violence to a victim is 100 percent, and therefore no argument can be validly made that apportions the right to self defense, which is absolute, based on a statistical guess about how likely it is that any particular victim will be victimized.

You insist on disregarding the simple fact that crime victims are crime victims, irrespective of how many of them there are in any particular community, and one crime victim in a community has the same complete and absolute right to be effectively armed for self defense as everyone else does, including the police, because however small the "statistical" risk of victimization, there is always a risk present, which vindicates the individual's decisions to prepare for effective defense against that risk.

Perhaps his or her preparations will be wasted effort because he or she may never be victimized, but it's irrational to deny any individual the right to be armed on the supposition that they will never be victimized, because obviously there is always a chance, however small, that they will be and it's their ultimate choice based on their personal assessment of their risk factors, not yours and not anyone elses.

And as long as their preparation and equipment is not used unlawfully, merely being prepared and armed has no negative impact on society at all, and rather a large beneficial impact, as the statistics from Chicago prove, once again, with dropping crime rates after Chicago was compelled by the court to give up its prohibition on handguns.
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"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Brit Beheads A Yank

Post by JimC » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:56 am

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Are you seriously suggesting that deaths or serious injuries from violence per thousand would higher over a year for American citizens residing the UK than for those residing in Iraq?

That is the only objective measure of risk appropriate to your original wild claim. Once you have digested that, (if your intellect is up to the task), you can then waffle on to your heart's content about guns and human rights...
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Re: Brit Beheads A Yank

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:39 am

Gouh, no wonder this forum is failing. It's just you two going back and forth and back and forth. My scroll wheel! My scroll finger! My feelings! I'm leaving this forum now because two people are having an exclusive debate!!1
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Re: Brit Beheads A Yank

Post by mistermack » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:23 am

rEvolutionist wrote:Gouh, no wonder this forum is failing. It's just you two going back and forth and back and forth. My scroll wheel! My scroll finger! My feelings! I'm leaving this forum now because two people are having an exclusive debate!!1
What you need is a troll wheel, not a scroll wheel.
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Re: Brit Beheads A Yank

Post by Seth » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:25 pm

JimC wrote:Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Are you seriously suggesting that deaths or serious injuries from violence per thousand would higher over a year for American citizens residing the UK than for those residing in Iraq?
No, because that's just another iteration of your bogus statistical argument. However, any individual anywhere in the world who is armed and trained for self defense is ipso facto more safe than any individual anywhere in the world who is not armed or trained for self defense, and that's what matters.
That is the only objective measure of risk appropriate to your original wild claim. Once you have digested that, (if your intellect is up to the task), you can then waffle on to your heart's content about guns and human rights...
You still cannot, or will not understand the difference between "measure of risk" and "safer." You are incessantly stating a bogus statistical argument that suggests that as a group, citizens in the UK are less likely to be violently victimized than citizens in the US or Iraq. This may or may not be true, but it is entirely and completely irrelevant because I am not and have never argued or accepted the diversionary argument that "risk" is appropriately analyzed and risk management or mitigation is regulated with respect to group statistics.

I've said it before and I'll say it again until it gets through your thick head, the individual's right to analyze, assess, quantify, manage, mitigate and prepare for defense of his or her person or the persons of those for whom he is legally or morally responsible (like his children) is not divisible or quantifiable. This right cannot be determined by or regulated based upon an analysis of risk that applies to others, it can only be determined by the individual based on his or her personal analysis of the risks he or she faces.

For you to say that Otis McDonald's right to obtain and keep an operable handgun in his home is unlawful because your statistical study suggests that his risk of being violently victimized by a criminal is too small to justify respecting his right to absolute safety in his home is preposterous, arrogant, dismissive and, just by the way, illegal according to the Supreme Court of the United States, which agrees with me that his right to be safe in his home is absolute and complete and the City of Chicago's judgment that his need is not grave or immediate enough to grant him a permit is a violation of his constitutional rights.

It doesn't matter if Mr. McDonald lives in the Morgan Park area of Chicago or a gated community with armed guards in Martha's Vinyard, his right is every bit as complete and unassailable as Teddy Kennedy's right to have armed guards around his house or Obama to enjoy armed Secret Service protection is.

Neither you nor anyone else has any power or authority whatsoever to "analyze" crime in his neighborhood and decide that it isn't "dangerous enough" to allow him to be armed. It doesn't matter if the per-capita crime rate is 80 percent or one percent, his right is complete and absolute in and of itself, and cannot be regulated or apportioned based on what YOU think his risk potential is.

Do you understand yet?
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Brit Beheads A Yank

Post by rainbow » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:42 am

Seth wrote: Do you understand yet?
No, I couldn't be bothered to read your long-winded rant.

How about a précis?
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Re: Brit Beheads A Yank

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:04 am

Guns are good, Marxists are bad...
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Re: Brit Beheads A Yank

Post by Hermit » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:07 am

Americans are safer in Iraq than in Engerland.
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Re: Brit Beheads A Yank

Post by rainbow » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:50 am

It all comes down to Guns and Butter, my Economics Professor used to say...

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Re: Brit Beheads A Yank

Post by MrJonno » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:24 am

Produce 300 Gun's no butter and go and nick someone else butter?
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Re: Brit Beheads A Yank

Post by Seth » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:46 pm

rainbow wrote:
Seth wrote: Do you understand yet?
No, I couldn't be bothered to read your long-winded rant.

How about a précis?
Take an elementary course in reading and then one in logic and reason and try again.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Brit Beheads A Yank

Post by Seth » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:48 pm

MrJonno wrote:Produce 300 Gun's no butter and go and nick someone else butter?
Or, produce 300 guns today to protect tomorrow's 1800 pound butter production against someone who wants to knick it. This is the distinction between durable goods and consumables.
Last edited by Seth on Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Brit Beheads A Yank

Post by Seth » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:48 pm

rainbow wrote:It all comes down to Guns and Butter, my Economics Professor used to say...

Image
Your economics professor is also an idiot.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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