Dutchman returns Holocaust medal after family deaths in Gaza

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Re: Dutchman returns Holocaust medal after family deaths in

Post by klr » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:32 pm

Hermit wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Hermit wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Moral of the story is that you have no morals. Civilians are never "legitimate" military targets. Only in fascist land.
Bremen ... Dresden ... Hiroshima ... Nagasaki ... My Lai ...

As I said, civilians are never legitimate military targets. If you think they are, then you have no morality.
I can assure you that nothing is further from my mind than attempting to fabricate any moral justification for systematically and intentionally killing civilians. Not even in the case of the nuclear bombs that destroyed two cities and their inhabitants. You may recall that people have sought to justify those wholesale massacres by claiming that the net effect was to shorten the war and actually save lives.

Same reasoning stood behind the strategy pursued by Bomber Harris. Greetings, Bremen and Dresden. Even the minor town (approximate population of 90,000 in 1944) I was born in was bombed 35 times. Most of those bombings were diversionary raids to lure the German fighters away from the actually intended targets, but on three occasions, the town was the prime target. During one of these, 10,000 civilians were killed in 20 minutes and the same carpet bombing left two thirds of the population homeless. In not a single occasion were the three obvious targets of military significance (two chemical factories, one rail head) hit by as much as a single bomb, although they were right on the edges of town and easy to spot on the reconnaissance aerial photographs. They were large, easy to spot and not difficult to hit, at least occasionally, if they were ever actually targeted. They manifestly never were.

What I did want to do was to draw attention to the fact that actually aiming at exclusively civilian targets has always been part of warfare and all sides have done that at all times. Israel's actions in Gaza are inhumane and reprehensible, but Israel is not some sole pariah. The Geneva conventions have been largely ineffectual in regard to the intentional targeting of civilians. Few people have been successfully prosecuted at the International Court of The Hague and even fewer that perpetrated war crimes on behalf of the sides that are regarded as "the good side".

There are no possible excuses, let alone justifications, but those are the facts.
Actually, they were probably very difficult to hit during the night attacks favoured by RAF Bomber Command. One of the (several) reasons why "area area bombing" became the preferred RAF strategy was that anything more precise was simply beyond their abilities, and would remain so for most of the war, "precision" attacks using Mosquitoes or earthquake bombs notwithstanding. Even using elite pathfinder units just allowed them to accurately mark where they wanted to start area bombing.

The US Air Force, bombing by day and with the aid of the best aiming technology available at the time (bomb sight or radar), killed a great deal less people than the RAF over Europe. This was less due to the Americans being - relative to Bomber Command - more accurate and more discriminating, but because the mainly high explosive bombs they dropped were unlikely to start fire storms.

There were other reasons why some cities were more heavily targeted than others, such as them being easy to locate using rudimentary radar.and other navigation aids. Hamburg was a prime example.

BTW, the RAF raid you've described sounds like it was on either Darmstadt or Kassel ??
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Re: Dutchman returns Holocaust medal after family deaths in

Post by Hermit » Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:45 am

Darmstadt. As I said, there were 34 raids, and not a single bomb dropped on either of the Merck factories or the rail head. You'd think if facilities of military value were aimed for, they would have been hit once or twice. As a matter of fact, there actually is evidence that they were not targeted at all. There were no bombs. What dropped from the skies were incendiary sticks. They are not designed to blow up factories and railway tracks. They are designed to crack through roofing tiles and burn down homes. Lots and lots of homes.
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Re: Dutchman returns Holocaust medal after family deaths in

Post by JimC » Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:53 am

Hermit wrote:Darmstadt. As I said, there were 34 raids, and not a single bomb dropped on either of the Merck factories or the rail head. You'd think if facilities of military value were aimed for, they would have been hit once or twice. As a matter of fact, there actually is evidence that they were not targeted at all. There were no bombs. What dropped from the skies were incendiary sticks. They are not designed to blow up factories and railway tracks. They are designed to crack through roofing tiles and burn down homes. Lots and lots of homes.
As were many of the bombing raids by Le May's 20th Airforce on Japanese cities...

Even easier, there, with largely wooden construction...
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Re: Dutchman returns Holocaust medal after family deaths in

Post by mistermack » Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:13 am

Strontium Dog wrote:
mistermack wrote:
Strontium Dog wrote:
mistermack wrote:Without a link to a reliable source, I have to assume that SD is bullshitting.
It wouldn't be the first time. Nor the second.
Coming from you, that's pretty funny.
You're the joke. That crap you posted contains nothing that even hints that the family were harbouring a terrorist.
Fail.
Yes, I'm fully acquainted with your propensity to ignore the evidence.

Presumably the Hamas militant killed in the bombed house was selling cookies door to door.
What evidence? You saying it isn't evidence.
In any case, that wouldn't establish that they harboured a terrorist. That's just more of your bullshit.
You haven't posted any evidence that they harboured him, or that he was a terrorist.
That's all invented by you.
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Re: Dutchman returns Holocaust medal after family deaths in

Post by JimC » Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:21 am

Even if there were a Hamas militant staying at the house, the ethics of destroying an entire household of innocent civilians to target one man is appalling. A missile that targets an active rocket launching site, causing some collateral damage, is a different proposition, although still ethically murky...
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Re: Dutchman returns Holocaust medal after family deaths in

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:43 am

Not in SD's "liberal" world.
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Re: Dutchman returns Holocaust medal after family deaths in

Post by Svartalf » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:24 am

Is Seth a sock for SD or the reverse?
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Re: Dutchman returns Holocaust medal after family deaths in

Post by cronus » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:35 am

Depends on the risk equation. I'm afraid a few families are expendable if I was to take out a Hitler. Harsh equation, harsh world.
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Re: Dutchman returns Holocaust medal after family deaths in

Post by Strontium Dog » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:21 am

mistermack wrote:What evidence? You saying it isn't evidence.
In any case, that wouldn't establish that they harboured a terrorist. That's just more of your bullshit.
You haven't posted any evidence that they harboured him, or that he was a terrorist.
That's all invented by you.
Well, let's ignore your lies and look at the evidence.

I posted a link to the PCHR proving that one of the victims of the airstrike was not a member of the family.
I posted a picture of said victim's martyr poster proving that he was a member of the Al Qassam Brigades.

Now, if you have a better explanation for his presence at the house than "he was staying there", let's hear it.

Until then, we'll continue to treat your shameful kneejerk reality-denying contrarianism as the trolling filth it is.
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Re: Dutchman returns Holocaust medal after family deaths in

Post by Strontium Dog » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:27 am

JimC wrote:Even if there were a Hamas militant staying at the house, the ethics of destroying an entire household of innocent civilians to target one man is appalling. A missile that targets an active rocket launching site, causing some collateral damage, is a different proposition, although still ethically murky...
That's a discussion which can and should be had - to what extent is it acceptable to cause collateral damage in order to achieve a military objective. However anyone claiming that Israel are deliberately targeting civilians is speaking beyond the evidence. International law permits collateral civilian deaths in war, within certain parameters.
rEvolutionist wrote:Not in SD's "liberal" world.
More like not in the world you've invented in your head.

Please shut up about it, it sounds a terrifying place.
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Re: Dutchman returns Holocaust medal after family deaths in

Post by Strontium Dog » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:28 am

Svartalf wrote:Is Seth a sock for SD or the reverse?
Take the sock off your head and read what is actually written, it aids immensely in understanding.
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Re: Dutchman returns Holocaust medal after family deaths in

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:11 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:
mistermack wrote:What evidence? You saying it isn't evidence.
In any case, that wouldn't establish that they harboured a terrorist. That's just more of your bullshit.
You haven't posted any evidence that they harboured him, or that he was a terrorist.
That's all invented by you.
Well, let's ignore your lies and look at the evidence.

I posted a link to the PCHR proving that one of the victims of the airstrike was not a member of the family.
I posted a picture of said victim's martyr poster proving that he was a member of the Al Qassam Brigades.

Now, if you have a better explanation for his presence at the house than "he was staying there", let's hear it.

Until then, we'll continue to treat your shameful kneejerk reality-denying contrarianism as the trolling filth it is.
You said they were harbouring him. Where's the proof of that?
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Re: Dutchman returns Holocaust medal after family deaths in

Post by tattuchu » Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:18 pm

The common people are often put in impossible situations, it should be noted. In Afghanistan, for instance, where my BIL was stationed, he saw this all the time. Militants would show up at a family's home and bury weapons on the property. Or a member of the militants would hide out at a house. The family wasn't exactly given a choice. They were told to allow this or die. Then the "good guys" come along and ask if the people know anything or are harboring any militants. If you're lying, we tell them, we'll kill you. So no matter what the poor bastards do, they can't fucking win.
I'm not saying this particular family was harboring a militant against their will. But it's possible.
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Re: Dutchman returns Holocaust medal after family deaths in

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:23 pm

I can't let this trolling filth stand, Tatt. I'm calling the UNHCR on behalf of SD for this heinous attack on his human rights.
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Re: Dutchman returns Holocaust medal after family deaths in

Post by mistermack » Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:38 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:
mistermack wrote:What evidence? You saying it isn't evidence.
In any case, that wouldn't establish that they harboured a terrorist. That's just more of your bullshit.
You haven't posted any evidence that they harboured him, or that he was a terrorist.
That's all invented by you.
Well, let's ignore your lies and look at the evidence.

I posted a link to the PCHR proving that one of the victims of the airstrike was not a member of the family.
Yes, I know.
Strontium Dog wrote: I posted a picture of said victim's martyr poster proving that he was a member of the Al Qassam Brigades.
No, you posted a picture. That's all. The rest is your bullshit.
Strontium Dog wrote: Now, if you have a better explanation for his presence at the house than "he was staying there", let's hear it.
A million different explanations. I can invent things just as well as you can. But I don't, because that would make me a liar.

If you think that there is only one possible explanation for someone being in a house, and that is that they are ''harbouring him, then you're incredibly fucking stupid.

Apart from all that, Hamas is a self-defence organisation, defending the most opressed people on earth.
And they are the legally elected government of Gaza.
They're only branded terrorists by the US and it's poodles. (that's you)

Israel is a terrorist state. It's atrocities go on day after day. As far as I'm concerned, Hamas are bloody heroes compared to those cunts.
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