Where's Red Celt when you want a laugh!?

[John_fi_Skye]

Weel, It'll be twa an I'm granted honorary Scot status.

Grantit! Nì sinn a' chùis còmhla ri chèile! We'll dae it thegither!

[Svartalf]

Alba gu bràth !

and I really can't get used to the differences between Irish and Scottish.

[mistermack]

I think the whole yes campaign has been dishonest from day one, and I've said so right from the start.

Starting with the question, which is a con. It should have been, ''do you want Scotland to be a SEPERATE country, not an ''independent'' country.

If the actual question contains a lie, what hope is there for the campaign? And I made that point well before the question was decided on.

And all that guff about it not being about nationalism is laughable.
Maybe Ron has actually conned HIMSELF into believing that stuff. Who knows? I think he's gone all grumpy because he knows deep down that I'm right.

The nationalists have been pushing this notion that local control is naturally best, as if it's some fact of life that doesn't need proving, like gravity, or sunrise. Actually, it's bollocks, and they know it, and prove it by their actions all the time, re the EU and the pound.

What it's all about really, is that a previously content region of the UK finds itself with a mineral asset offshore, and decides that they don't want to share it. If it wasn't for the oil money, there wouldn't even be a vote.
There probably wouldn't even have been a vote on a vote.
Same with the EU. Scottish people wouldn't vote for ''independence'' without the knowledge that they can still freely get jobs down south without restriction.

But that's the nationalists. To their credit, the Scottish people have seen through the guff. So far.

As to being a stirrer, if saying what you think is stirring it then I am.
I despise nationalism. I always have. I even hate the flag-waving and anthems at sports events. I've never made any secret of it, I've said so many times. So Ron pretending that it's nothing to do with nationalism needed some stirring, as far as I'm concerned.

[John_fi_Skye]

I just can't believe that last post. I don't know Ron personally, but the things he's said on this fred over the last few days have been absolutely spot-on, in my opinion. I agree with him 100%. I'd add that he comes across to me as a rational, reasonable person, who has strongly-held views for good reasons.

On Ron's behalf, then, I find myself offended and sickened by the imputation to him of self-delusion, grumpiness, pretending things and all the rest, and the last paragraph of mistermack's latest post gives a good example of where some bigotry in this debate really lies.

Kindly stop accusing those of us who disagree with you of various negative character traits which we do not have. By all means disagree with us about the issues, but kindly do not insult us as people.

[mistermack]

Ron can look after himself, and dish it out as well, as he's proved on many occasions.

I see no reason to assume his posts are either sincere or manipulative. He posts like a politician, and treats the facts in that manner too. Hence he quite happily changed my post from ''nationalist don't like the English'' to '' you hate the English '', without a care. He just posts what he WANTS you to think.
Just look back through his posts, if you want more examples. Where did I call him a bigot?

It's posts like that, that colour my reaction to what he writes. Why on earth should I take his posts on face-value? And yet, his stated reason for getting all offended is that I doubted his word. Too right, when he treats the truth like that.

Anyway, I don't believe his reason for flouncing either. It's the same kind of performance.

[John_fi_Skye]

Fair enough. I'm voting Yes, for reasons Ron gave more eloquently than I could have. No bigotry. No anti-English feeling. No dishonesty. No self-deception. No guff. No flag-waving. Not even - really - much nationalism. Just a rational understanding of the issues as I see them.

As long as that's understood.

[Svartalf]

in ways, I'm the one who'd vote yes for reasons of nationalism and hate of the english, if I were a Scot and polled in the first place, but my family has a 300 yo feud with the english...

[John_fi_Skye]

in ways, I'm the one who'd vote yes for reasons of nationalism and hate of the english, if I were a Scot and polled in the first place, but my family has a 300 yo feud with the english...

I admire the cut of your jib, young man.

[mistermack]

Fair enough. I'm voting Yes, for reasons Ron gave more eloquently than I could have. No bigotry. No anti-English feeling. No dishonesty. No self-deception. No guff. No flag-waving. Not even - really - much nationalism. Just a rational understanding of the issues as I see them.

As long as that's understood.

It always was. ( I think you know I'd say if it wasn't ).

Anyway, I've not called nationalism bigotry. I said I despise it. It doesn't mean I despise nationalists.
It's part of the human makeup that we all inherit. I wish it wasn't, but there you go. I despise as a trait, in me, as well as others. It's my pet hate. (or one of them)

But bigotry is to nationalism, as hate is to dislike. It's not what I said, and nothing like what I meant.

[Rum]

'300 yo feud', says it all. If we are to make any sort of go of things we need to demolish those sorts of ideas or they could kill us all.

[John_fi_Skye]

I've said my piece. I'm still unhappy about some things that were said in some recent posts, but to explain why would be to repeat myself, and would also be really boring.

[Svartalf]

'300 yo feud', says it all. If we are to make any sort of go of things we need to demolish those sorts of ideas or they could kill us all.

What can I say, I'm a historian at heart and attached to tradition... and my family has been stoutly Jacobite from 1715 to 1745.

[mistermack]

'300 yo feud', says it all. If we are to make any sort of go of things we need to demolish those sorts of ideas or they could kill us all.

Well, I would be saying exactly the same thing, about the English nationalists, if they were voting to split from Scotland.
I'm not interested in who's idea it is. I'm against splitting.

[Clinton Huxley]

In your conscience now, can we not be united by a universal dislike of the French?

[Svartalf]

The French have the Auld Alliance with Scotland... around a common dislike of the English