Malaysia jet crashes in east Ukraine conflict zone

[mistermack]

John Kerry is a lying bullshitter.
That's his job, and he's ideally suited to it.
Who gives a fuck what he says? You'd have to be pretty gullible.

It might be the truth, it might be a pack of lies. There's no way of telling.

[JimC]

John Kerry is a lying bullshitter.
That's his job, and he's ideally suited to it.
Who gives a fuck what he says? You'd have to be pretty gullible.

It might be the truth, it might be a pack of lies. There's no way of telling.

Seriously, that is bullshit. Whatever you might think of Western or Ukrainan spokesmen, the overwhelming weight of evidence simply points in one direction. The missile was fired from territory controlled by Russian-backed militants, who are effectively criminals controlling a crime scene, and looting the possessions of murdered victims.

It is not a 50/50 proposition...

[mistermack]

John Kerry is a lying bullshitter.
That's his job, and he's ideally suited to it.
Who gives a fuck what he says? You'd have to be pretty gullible.

It might be the truth, it might be a pack of lies. There's no way of telling.

Seriously, that is bullshit. Whatever you might think of Western or Ukrainan spokesmen, the overwhelming weight of evidence simply points in one direction. The missile was fired from territory controlled by Russian-backed militants, who are effectively criminals controlling a crime scene, and looting the possessions of murdered victims.

It is not a 50/50 proposition...

No, I didn't say it was. It's odds on that that's right. I was just commenting on John Kerry.
And he was trying to insinuate that the Russian government had a hand in the shooting down. Which is highly unlikely.
I would say that Ukraine had more of a hand in it, as they allowed flights to continue over the territory.

By the way, the Ukraine military shot down a Russian passenger jet about ten years ago, if I remember correctly. So they are perfectly capable of that sort of shit. That was BEFORE all this turmoil.

[JimC]

mistermack wrote:

I would say that Ukraine had more of a hand in it, as they allowed flights to continue over the territory.

The fault, if any exists is down to the International Flight organisation which still gave the area a green light, and Malaysian Airlines, for not joining the prudent group of airlines that steered away from the region.

[Svartalf]

Well, let's be honest about it...
a) Buk missile systems are not found in just every armory the rebels might have seized
b)They are Russian made, and almost certainly Russian provided
c) They are high tech devices, and I'm not sure untrained personnel could have acquired the Malaysia flight and done a fire-and-forget... so there's a likelihood that "advisors" were involved in it

So the Russkies are rather more than less responsible for the whole thing given that they provided the device, and likely the personnel that operated it, even if said personnel did not aim at the AM flight of their own initiative, which remains a mystery at this stage, and possibly forever.

[mistermack]

Well, let's be honest about it...
a) Buk missile systems are not found in just every armory the rebels might have seized
b)They are Russian made, and almost certainly Russian provided
c) They are high tech devices, and I'm not sure untrained personnel could have acquired the Malaysia flight and done a fire-and-forget... so there's a likelihood that "advisors" were involved in it

So the Russkies are rather more than less responsible for the whole thing given that they provided the device, and likely the personnel that operated it, even if said personnel did not aim at the AM flight of their own initiative, which remains a mystery at this stage, and possibly forever.

Nothing honest about that lot. The Buk missiles were captured from the Ukraine govt about a week before. They already used it to shoot down a Ukraine transport.
The Ukraine govt should have banned all flights as soon as any of that happened.
The airline relied on the international organisation, and they rely on governments.

I think it's highly likely that the Ukraine govt was hoping this would happen.
It's certainly had the desired effect.

[Svartalf]

We know they had them missiles for some time, and used them already, but as to whether they captured them or were provided them by Big Brother, and were able to use the system without aid from Russian trained personnel (assuming those rebels are not infiltrated Russian soldiery in the first place, which is a distinct possibility), I have serious doubts... Also, I reported your post for calling me dishonest.

[mistermack]

We know they had them missiles for some time, and used them already, but as to whether they captured them or were provided them by Big Brother, and were able to use the system without aid from Russian trained personnel (assuming those rebels are not infiltrated Russian soldiery in the first place, which is a distinct possibility), I have serious doubts... Also, I reported your post for calling me dishonest.

Ha,
you started your post by saying ''lets be honest''.
I disagreed with your facts, I don't think your sources are honest. I'm sure you are honest, but where does your information come from?

But it's a situation where getting honest information is virtually impossible. That's why the expression ''lets be honest'' is not really appropriate to what's happening.

[Tero]

So any information that comes from a John Kerry or an Al gore is suspect? The Gubment!

[mistermack]

So any information that comes from a John Kerry or an Al gore is suspect? The Gubment!

I would say completely worthless, rather than suspect. Al Gore and John Kerry are two of a kind.
Information that comes THROUGH them might be worth something, depending on the original source.

[Svartalf]

except of course that they don't publicize their sources, so it has to be assumed the info is FROM them.

[mistermack]

except of course that they don't publicize their sources, so it has to be assumed the info is FROM them.

In that case it's worthless. It's actually worse than that. It's designed to get you thinking a certain way. It's not designed to inform you.

[klr]

Well, let's be honest about it...
a) Buk missile systems are not found in just every armory the rebels might have seized
b)They are Russian made, and almost certainly Russian provided
c) They are high tech devices, and I'm not sure untrained personnel could have acquired the Malaysia flight and done a fire-and-forget... so there's a likelihood that "advisors" were involved in it

So the Russkies are rather more than less responsible for the whole thing given that they provided the device, and likely the personnel that operated it, even if said personnel did not aim at the AM flight of their own initiative, which remains a mystery at this stage, and possibly forever.

Nothing honest about that lot. The Buk missiles were captured from the Ukraine govt about a week before. They already used it to shoot down a Ukraine transport.
The Ukraine govt should have banned all flights as soon as any of that happened.
The airline relied on the international organisation, and they rely on governments.

I think it's highly likely that the Ukraine govt was hoping this would happen.
It's certainly had the desired effect.

The rebels said they captured it from the Ukrainians. That might have been the case, but if they'd got it from Russia, they're not going to come out and say that, are they?

[mistermack]

The rebels said they captured it from the Ukrainians. That might have been the case, but if they'd got it from Russia, they're not going to come out and say that, are they?

You can't believe anything that comes out of that cesspit, from one side or the other.
On the news today, local people were saying that the Ukraine fighter jets were regularly using passenger jets as cover, when they flew over the area. And others locals said that they saw fighter jets, just before the plane came down. Whatever happened, the jet should never have been there. That's the one and only thing that you can be sure of.

[Tero]

I don't think the Dumbass Militia are motivated to steal and learn anything that hard. They had training. "Shoot at anything that looks like a Ukranian plane." "What do they look like?" "We'll get back on that."