Malaysia jet crashes in east Ukraine conflict zone

[JimC]

Lol, does the mosquito declare war on humans?

In tropical Australia, yes indeed...

[klr]

I can't imagine it was a deliberate act, like Jim said it would be a nightmare for Putin, who is already not he most popular man in Europe. If I were a betting man I'd take odds it was mistaken identity, since the separatists had downed a Ukrainian transport the day before and were probably all pumped up, hoorah and all that. I'd also imagine that if there was a Russian adviser with them he's shitting enormous motherfucking bricks and waiting to be called back to Moscow to explain himself. I would not want to face Vlad under those circumstances.

I imagine the advisor would never get that far. Vlad would want to keep himself as far away as possible from any "disciplinary action" taken against any Russian, as otherwise he would just be implicating himself and Russia generally in the whole business.

[klr]

I wonder if it will turn out that there were some Americans on board. I bet Putin is really hoping there weren't.

27 Aussies...

No Americans, as far as I'm aware...

Netherlands: 189
Malaysia: 44 (including 15 crew)
Australian: 27
Indonesia: 12
UK: 10
Germany: 4
Belgium: 4
Philippines: 3
Canada: 1
New Zealand: 1
American: 1
Unverified: 2

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-28360827

[klr]

I can't imagine it was a deliberate act, like Jim said it would be a nightmare for Putin, who is already not he most popular man in Europe. If I were a betting man I'd take odds it was mistaken identity, since the separatists had downed a Ukrainian transport the day before and were probably all pumped up, hoorah and all that. I'd also imagine that if there was a Russian adviser with them he's shitting enormous motherfucking bricks and waiting to be called back to Moscow to explain himself. I would not want to face Vlad under those circumstances.

There's been talk of some rebels boasting about downing an inexistent Antonov 26 military transport right when the 777 was shot down.

... and then deleting the offending tweet once they realised what had happened. Surely Twitter keeps logs, so the story can be checked out?

It was shot down by Ukranian govt forces, according to Russia Today.

Compared to Russia Today, communist-era Pravda and Ivestia were probably solid news sources.

[Clinton Huxley]

Russia Today is like the Mouth of Sauron.

[mistermack]

I have a strong a suspicion that the Ukrainians were hoping that this would happen.

Why did they not ban flights over the area? When they knew that their missiles had fallen into the hands of the pro-russian loonies? They knew that there was a risk, but all they did was raise the minimum height requirement a bit, to 32,000 feet, when they knew that the missiles could reach 70,000 feet.

Someone in Ukraine must have had the conversation, ''shall we ban over-flights?'' and the answer ''no, if they bring down a passenger jet, they will get the blame''.

The international aviation authority must take some of the blame, but they probably routinely rely on the governments to issue directives.

[JimC]

I have a strong a suspicion that the Ukrainians were hoping that this would happen.

Why did they not ban flights over the area? When they knew that their missiles had fallen into the hands of the pro-russian loonies? They knew that there was a risk, but all they did was raise the minimum height requirement a bit, to 32,000 feet, when they knew that the missiles could reach 70,000 feet.

Someone in Ukraine must have had the conversation, ''shall we ban over-flights?'' and the answer ''no, if they bring down a passenger jet, they will get the blame''.

The international aviation authority must take some of the blame, but they probably routinely rely on the governments to issue directives.

Many prudent airlines chose to avoid the area.

Malaysian Airlines did not...

But right now, the pressing issue is that an objective team of international observers needs to secure the area, complete an investigation, and remove the bodies with dignity before they start rotting...

Right now, armed rebel scum are driving away international observers, and acting like snarling hyaenas defending a carcass. Reliable accounts suggest widespread looting, and removing the black box recorder. An armed international force needs to move into the area, and terminate with extreme prejudice any scum that dares to think otherwise.

[Clinton Huxley]

The EU will whimper and hope it all blows over. Then France can get back to selling ships to the Russian Navy and Blighty can find secure places for Russian oligarchs to hide their cash. Meanwhile, Merkel will carry on fellating Putin in return for Russian gas.

[mistermack]

I have a strong a suspicion that the Ukrainians were hoping that this would happen.

Why did they not ban flights over the area? When they knew that their missiles had fallen into the hands of the pro-russian loonies? They knew that there was a risk, but all they did was raise the minimum height requirement a bit, to 32,000 feet, when they knew that the missiles could reach 70,000 feet.

Someone in Ukraine must have had the conversation, ''shall we ban over-flights?'' and the answer ''no, if they bring down a passenger jet, they will get the blame''.

The international aviation authority must take some of the blame, but they probably routinely rely on the governments to issue directives.

Many prudent airlines chose to avoid the area.

Malaysian Airlines did not...

But right now, the pressing issue is that an objective team of international observers needs to secure the area, complete an investigation, and remove the bodies with dignity before they start rotting...

Right now, armed rebel scum are driving away international observers, and acting like snarling hyaenas defending a carcass. Reliable accounts suggest widespread looting, and removing the black box recorder. An armed international force needs to move into the area, and terminate with extreme prejudice any scum that dares to think otherwise.

There's scum on both sides.
There always is in a civil war.
Putin should have partitioned the country when he had the chance. I actually think he's been rather restrained.
But the whole sorry mess is the fault of the EU and the US, working behind the scenes to destabilise Russian influence.
They've been at it for years.

[Clinton Huxley]

I blame The Golden Horde.

[Tero]

The "cossacks" were too dumb to know there were commercial flights over Ukraine!
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine ... 56545.html

The commander of the Dumbass People's militia is a Russian citizen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin

[klr]

The "cossacks" were too dumb to know there were commercial flights over Ukraine!
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine ... 56545.html

The commander of the Dumbass People's militia is a Russian citizen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin

At this point, I'd be wary of the authenticity of that conversation. That said, It could turn out to be true, or even if it's not, something like that might have really happened.

[JimC]

The "cossacks" were too dumb to know there were commercial flights over Ukraine!
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine ... 56545.html

The commander of the Dumbass People's militia is a Russian citizen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin

At this point, I'd be wary of the authenticity of that conversation. That said, It could turn out to be true, or even if it's not, something like that might have really happened.

I think the fact that the missile was clearly fired from deep within territory controlled by the rebels is proof enough that it was (most likely) them, or (least likely) a bad mistake by a Russian missile team on loan...

[klr]

The "cossacks" were too dumb to know there were commercial flights over Ukraine!
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine ... 56545.html

The commander of the Dumbass People's militia is a Russian citizen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin

At this point, I'd be wary of the authenticity of that conversation. That said, It could turn out to be true, or even if it's not, something like that might have really happened.

I think the fact that the missile was clearly fired from deep within territory controlled by the rebels is proof enough that it was (most likely) them, or (least likely) a bad mistake by a Russian missile team on loan...

Far more experienced people have accidentally shot down airliners - the Soviet Air Force and the US Navy come to mind. But in this case, that working hypothesis is about the only one that makes sense, for reasons already given.

[Tero]

"What we have is a lot of evidence that points in the direction, that raises very, very serious questions, including the fact that a few weeks ago, we have 150-vehicle convoy coming from Russia, going into the east of Ukraine with tanks, artillery, multiple rocket launchers, armored personnel carriers, turned over to the separatists," Kerry said. "We know that there are Russians who are leaders of the separatists. Some, not all. Some. And we know that the Russians have armed the separatists, trained the separatists, support the separatists, and have, to date, not publicly called on the separatists to stand down or to be part of the solution."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-ai ... h17-crash/