And that's WHY we carry them...

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JimC
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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by JimC » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:09 pm

I find it quite extraordinary how Americans can be so proud of their overall system of government on the one hand ("the best goddamn system in the universe, boy..."), and so fearful that a government will morph overnight into a totalitarian dictatorship on the other...

The rest of the civilised world quietly grumbles about their tawdry or somewhat incompetent politicians from time to time, but don't go to bed fretting as to whether they have enough guns and ammo to survive the night of the black helicopters...
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Post by piscator » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:12 pm


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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by Seth » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:35 pm

Hermit wrote:
Seth wrote:...you're all fucking brain-dead barbarians who don't give a flying fuck how many people get killed...
Blind groper wrote:The USA has a murder rate, five times as high as NZ on a per capita basis, and 4.5 times as high as Australia.
Seth wrote:It's not a statistical argument BG. I've told you this before. You have no right to reduce anyone's life to a statistical value
It's you who doesn't give a fuck how many people are killed, Seth. Those of us who do are perfectly entitled to point out the murder rate in the USA, compare it to the murder rate in New Zealand and Australia, note the differences in gun ownership, and conclude that more guns = more killings.

If you were an honest debater who is convinced that statistics are irrelevant regarding gun ownership, you would not bother citing your mantra "more guns = less crime". The hypocrisy of attempting to use statistics in defence of gun ownership, but disallowing its use to criticise it is palpable.
Wrong. I care about every person who is killed by a criminal wielding an illegal weapon who is killed because people like you have denied that victim his right to be armed so he can defend himself.

Your intellectual failure is typical. You are incapable of distinguishing between the peaceable and non-harmful carrying of arms by non-criminal citizens and the criminal offense of illegally carrying a firearm for the purposes of committing a crime.

Those who legally and peaceably carry guns are not in any way responsible for the actions of criminals who commit crimes with them. There is no logical or rational connection between the two groups formed by the common possession of the same type of object any more than law-abiding people are responsible for crimes committed by unarmed criminals with their fists and feet. Guns are inanimate objects that have no motive or intent and they are incapable of perpetrating any harm at all unless they are physically operated by a human being. We don't arrest guns for committing crimes any more than we arrest hammers. We arrest the people who misuse either to commit a crime.

But if you don't commit a crime there is no logical reason whatsoever that you should be punished for merely possessing a hammer or a gun, nor should you be prohibited from possessing either merely because someone else might or does use either to commit a crime.

But that is the very essence of your argument, which displays no reason, logic or intellectual rigor whatsoever.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by Seth » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:45 pm

JimC wrote:I find it quite extraordinary how Americans can be so proud of their overall system of government on the one hand ("the best goddamn system in the universe, boy..."), and so fearful that a government will morph overnight into a totalitarian dictatorship on the other...

The rest of the civilised world quietly grumbles about their tawdry or somewhat incompetent politicians from time to time, but don't go to bed fretting as to whether they have enough guns and ammo to survive the night of the black helicopters...
It is that skepticism about the intentions and actions of government that keeps us free. We don't grumble about our government actions under our breath and tug our forelocks when our masters pass by, we throw horse apples at them, call them names and demand that they get down off their high horses and understand the simple fact that they are public servants, not a privileged class.

And because sometimes these public servants go off the reservation and go mad with power and try to become our masters we carefully protect the final option means of enforcing the will of the people and bringing bureaucrats to heel, or to the hangman, whichever is required.

We prefer to use other methods of controlling politicians, but we know that sometimes the only and last resort of a free people for throwing off the yoke of tyranny is by force of arms, and we determined at the outset of this nation that the People would never be placed in the position of having a force of arms inferior to that which any despot might gather together to enforce his tyrannous rule.

Never. Ever. As in "from 1776 to eternity."

Because we do this, when we grumble, politicians listen, because when we stop grumbling they are not far from a hole in the ground, and they know it.

Therefore, we are a free people, and you are not, no matter how gilded and wrapped in velvet the fetters that bind you may be.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by JimC » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:08 am

You obviously don't recognise the fact that you and many of your fellow Americans are living in a deluded fantasy world, imagining yourself to be part of a heroic resistance movement against an evil government... :roll:
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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by Blind groper » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:31 am

Seth

You claim to care about other people being hurt or killed. Yet you support the thing that does most of the hurting and killing. The facts are clear. More guns mean more murders. Also more guns mean more people maimed and permanently disabled, including serious brain damage.

A person owning a gun, according to the New England Journal of Medicine, has twice the chance of being murdered than a person who does not. Western nations with more guns have more murders and more gun tragedies.

None of us are asking for a total ban on guns. Just sufficient control to substantially reduce the death toll. This is like reducing the death toll from car accidents.

When I was a boy, 50 years ago, New Zealand had 2 million people and 800 deaths on the roads each year. Today, we have 4.5 million people and 300 road deaths.

How was this reduction in deaths achieved? Stricter rules.
Stricter policing.
Better technology (better cars)
Better roads.

With guns, it is just the same. You can reduce dramatically the number of people murdered, and the number maimed by doing the same thing.
Stricter rules.
Stricter policing.
Better technology (like guns that fire only for their owner)
Better social environment.

It took 50 years for my country to drop the road toll to where it is today. It would take the USA decades to drop the gun toll by a similar amount. You need to make a start!

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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by mistermack » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:29 am

JimC wrote:You obviously don't recognise the fact that you and many of your fellow Americans are living in a deluded fantasy world, imagining yourself to be part of a heroic resistance movement against an evil government... :roll:
That's the sad thing about delusion. The deluded really believes the shit that the voices are telling them. To them, it's completely real, and they are acting for the best.
A bit like Clint Eastwood, and John Wayne. Never a stray bullet, never an innocent bystander killed.
No mistaken identities.

That's the world that people like Seth actually think they inhabit.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by MrJonno » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:36 am

Those who legally and peaceably carry guns are not in any way responsible for the actions of criminals who commit crimes with them. There is no logical or rational connection between the two groups formed by the common possession of the same type of object any more than law-abiding people are responsible for crimes committed by unarmed criminals with their fists and fee
And that is where you are so wrong,

If you support handguns being legal and your neighbour shoots his wife dead YOU share the responsibility for that by permitting handguns to be legal in the first place
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!

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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by Svartalf » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:55 am

So if the neighbour clubs his wife dead with a broomhandle, are you responsible for letting brooms be legal?
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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by Tero » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:21 am

It takes a lot of work with a broom handle. Use a baseball bat. We export them.

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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by MrJonno » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:16 pm

Svartalf wrote:So if the neighbour clubs his wife dead with a broomhandle, are you responsible for letting brooms be legal?

Yes but as the broomhandle has quite a lot non-dead wife utility you may think that the cost of dead wife s not as much as how useful broom handles are.

Better example is drugs, if you think they should be all illegal then you have a responsibility for drug crime, however if you think they should be legal and someone overdoses on them and they probably wouldn't have touched them if they were legal you are also have a share of responsibility for their death
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!

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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by Svartalf » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:59 pm

If drugs were legal, it's every user's responsibility to monitor their own use... as a recovered alcoholic, I know about such things.
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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by MrJonno » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:14 pm

Svartalf wrote:If drugs were legal, it's every user's responsibility to monitor their own use... as a recovered alcoholic, I know about such things.
It's not one or the other, there wouldn't be many alcoholics if alcohol was illegal (and genuinely difficult to obtain.

The price of me enjoying a glass of wine does include someone drinking too much down the pub and going home to beat up his wife. Obviously I don't have the lion's share of the blame but I have a vote and choose for alcohol to be legal. We all have a responsibility for our society and environment even if we obviously don't make everyone else decisions.

One of the big problems with democracy is people don't take responsibility for their vote, the people get the government they deserve
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!

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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by Svartalf » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:26 pm

LOL :lol: Do you know what the effects of the Prohibition were on booze consumption? the wife beater will have himself to blame when his wife answers in kind
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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by MrJonno » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:03 pm

[quote="Svartalf"]LOL :lol: Do you know what the effects of the Prohibition were on booze consumption? the wife beater will have himself to blame when his wife answers in kind[/quote

It's why I mentioned not just banning alcohol but genuinely being able to restrict it. I don't support banning alcohol but by doing so I have to accept part of the cost of having it around.

If I did support prohibition likewise has a part blame for the criminalisation costs
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!

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