And that's WHY we carry them...

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JimC
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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by JimC » Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:23 pm

piscator wrote:
JimC wrote:
piscator wrote:
Blind groper wrote:Here in NZ, we restrict guns not by banning them, but by requiring an appropriate licence. Of course, to get a licence for a hand gun is essentially impossible for an ordinary citizen, which is the way it should be. But a hunting rifle or shotgun can be owned after getting the proper licence.

The end result of this is that firearms homicides are at a level less than 5% of that in the USA on a per capita basis.

America requires a licence to drive a car. Something similar for guns would be entirely appropriate, and it would cut the murder rate dramatically, making the place safer for everyone.

What does that have to do with the text of the 2nd Amendment?
The rest of the world doesn't give a fuck about the 2nd Amendment, just like the US doesn't give a fuck about the rest of the world...
:think:
And...what's your point? That it's law here and not there?

You can't just chalk it up as a case of 'We're all here because we're all not there' ? :console:
BG was describing an alternative way for a country to deal with the gun question. That has nothing to do with your precious amendment...
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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by piscator » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:40 am

JimC wrote:
piscator wrote:
JimC wrote:
piscator wrote:
Blind groper wrote:Here in NZ, we restrict guns not by banning them, but by requiring an appropriate licence. Of course, to get a licence for a hand gun is essentially impossible for an ordinary citizen, which is the way it should be. But a hunting rifle or shotgun can be owned after getting the proper licence.

The end result of this is that firearms homicides are at a level less than 5% of that in the USA on a per capita basis.

America requires a licence to drive a car. Something similar for guns would be entirely appropriate, and it would cut the murder rate dramatically, making the place safer for everyone.

What does that have to do with the text of the 2nd Amendment?
The rest of the world doesn't give a fuck about the 2nd Amendment, just like the US doesn't give a fuck about the rest of the world...
:think:
And...what's your point? That it's law here and not there?

You can't just chalk it up as a case of 'We're all here because we're all not there' ? :console:
BG was describing an alternative way for a country without an explicit right to keep and bear arms to deal with the gun question. That has nothing to do with your precious amendment...

Fixed so it makes more sense. Do carry on. :coffee:

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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by Seth » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:30 am

Blind groper wrote:Here in NZ, we restrict guns not by banning them, but by requiring an appropriate licence. Of course, to get a licence for a hand gun is essentially impossible for an ordinary citizen, which is the way it should be.
Why is that the way it should be? Because you don't like handguns? Who the fuck do you think you are to interfere with the peaceable activities of others?
But a hunting rifle or shotgun can be owned after getting the proper licence.
And nobody ever has or ever will be killed with a hunting rifle or shotgun merely because the legal owner has a "proper license??"

:funny: :funny: :funny:
The end result of this is that firearms homicides are at a level less than 5% of that in the USA on a per capita basis.
Correlation/causation fallacy.
America requires a licence to drive a car.


So does most every other country. Ever ask yourself why? Ever bother to consider the difference between a driver's license and a "may issue" gun license? Probably not although I know I've told you this before.

A driver's license is both proof of identity for the purposes of enforcement of traffic laws and a certification of competency in the operation of a motor vehicle on a public highway.

In almost all countries, if you meet the basic qualifications of age, ability and medical health that allow you to demonstrate that you can safely operate a motor vehicle on a public highway, the government MUST issue you a license. It's non-discretionary on the part of the licensing bureaucrats. You don't have to cite a "need" for a license, you don't have to have a "good and sufficient reason" to want or obtain a license, you just have to qualify and they give it to you and it allows you to operate a motor vehicle within the law on public highways. If you screw up too much or hurt or kill someone, the state revokes your license and/or puts you in jail for committing a crime...after having proven in court that you have actually committed a crime.

I have no problem with gun licenses to be just like driver's licenses, which means that you must demonstrate age, ability and medical health to carry a firearm IN A PUBLIC PLACE (any public place including hunting grounds), and if you pass the tests the government MUST issue you such a license because it's non-discretionary. You need not cite a "need" or "good and sufficient reason" to own and carry a gun, you just have to qualify and they give you the license and you may carry a gun in public, openly or concealed. If you screw up too much or hurt or kill someone without proper legal authority, the state revokes your license and/or puts you in jail for committing a crime...after having proven in court that you have actually committed a crime.

Interestingly, in 41 of the 50 states in the US, that's exactly what "shall issue" concealed carry laws do. They require the applicant to meet certain qualifications and demonstrate ability and a lack of a criminal record, which demonstrates civic responsibility and ensures the safety of the public. You take the class and the state MUST issue you a CCW permit.

So what the fuck is your problem with our concealed carry shall-issue statutes?

They are EXACTLY what anti-gun hoplophobes have been demanding for decades, except for one small thing: Hoplophobes and anti-gun zealots don't want the system to be shall-issue, they want it to be "may issue" and this actually means, as it does in New York or New Jersey or Chicago or LA, "no issue," because that's actually what these dipshits want. They aren't willing to respect our constitutional rights if we can show that we are trustworthy and extremely (and I mean extremely) unlikely to abuse that license, they want to get rid of guns, particular handguns, and they use "we make people get driver's licenses, why not gun licenses" canard as a bogus and mendacious evasion of the debate so that they sound like they are being "reasonable" and are suggesting "common sense gun control laws" which are anything but and are actually drafted specifically to empower government to DENY, a priori, the fundamental right to keep and bear arms using the rubric of "good and sufficient reason" as a universal denial criteria because the issuing authority has decided that there is no such thing as a "good and sufficient reason" to issue such a permit, which is exactly what New Jersey does with respect to non-resident permits, which are authorized by law but are virtually NEVER issued.
Something similar for guns would be entirely appropriate, and it would cut the murder rate dramatically, making the place safer for everyone.
No, it wouldn't, any more than making people get driver's licenses prevents murder by DUI. All any license does is show the person has met certain specified criteria and is therefore authorized to perform certain specified acts. It's NOT A GOD DAMNED GUARANTEE THAT ANYONE AT ALL WILL DO ONLY WHAT THEY ARE LICENSED TO DO. Much less is it any sort of bar that prevents a criminal who will be facing a murder charge from murdering someone because they don't have a "murder license."

For fuck's sake, will you think about this with more than one neuron, assuming you have so many as two to rub together... :fp:

Get your head out of your ass and look at the issue rationally, without the hoplophobe paranoia for once.
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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by Seth » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:31 am

JimC wrote:
piscator wrote:
Blind groper wrote:Here in NZ, we restrict guns not by banning them, but by requiring an appropriate licence. Of course, to get a licence for a hand gun is essentially impossible for an ordinary citizen, which is the way it should be. But a hunting rifle or shotgun can be owned after getting the proper licence.

The end result of this is that firearms homicides are at a level less than 5% of that in the USA on a per capita basis.

America requires a licence to drive a car. Something similar for guns would be entirely appropriate, and it would cut the murder rate dramatically, making the place safer for everyone.

What does that have to do with the text of the 2nd Amendment?
The rest of the world doesn't give a fuck about the 2nd Amendment, just like the US doesn't give a fuck about the rest of the world...
And we have guns, and you don't. Bend a knee and tug a forelock, slave.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by Seth » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:40 am

[quote="piscator"]Seth,

1. "Domicile" is synonymous with "Residence" unless NJ has a statute that says otherwise wrt handgun possession in a hotel room.
2. "Expectations of privacy" are between you and the hotel. Any room charges are private contracts between you, and the hotel. You are not renting your room from the New Jersey State Police, you do not intend to reside in NJ, so as far as they're concerned you are in transit, same as if were going down the highway. You may well be committing a felony when you unbox a handgun in your NJ hotel room.[/quot

Maybe. The point I'm making here is that the police CANNOT simply enter and search my hotel room, and neither can the hotel staff, without PC and a warrant.

The "reasonable expectation of privacy" is a legal concept that constrains police search and seizure activities. The courts have ruled quite clearly and definitively that a hotel room occupant has a reasonable expectation of privacy in that hotel room while he's staying there and that therefore the police are required to get a warrant unless there are exigent circumstances justifying warrantless entry. Random hotel room searches by the police are unconstitutional.

So if I am committing a felony, which I'm not because NJ law does not restrict the possession of a handgun in one's residence (domicile), temporary or otherwise, or in one's business, or on one's private property only to RESIDENTS, unless I have to shoot an intruder and so long as I act responsibly with my firearm, nobody will have any PC upon which to obtain a search warrant. The only regulations on residents is that they obtain a firearms owners card and that the purchase of a handgun within NJ be pursuant to the licensing and background check laws. But it is explicitly NOT illegal to possess a handgun in NJ without such a card, which is ONLY required for the PURCHASE of a handgun. If you already owned one before the law was put in place, you don't have to go get one unless you buy another handgun. The law explicitly provides that a person has a legal right to keep and bear arms, including handguns, on private property, in their place of residence, in their place of business, and (with conditions) while transporting the firearm lawfully from place to place, to a range or to a gunsmith.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by JimC » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:41 am

Seth wrote:

Why is that the way it should be? Because you don't like handguns? Who the fuck do you think you are to interfere with the peaceable activities of others?
What a moronic response. BG was describing the situation that actually exists in NZ, that is supported by the vast majority of its citizens, not some sort of undemocratic notion he has forced on others. Who the fuck are you to tell them what to do?
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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by piscator » Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:56 am

Seth wrote:
piscator wrote:Seth,

1. "Domicile" is synonymous with "Residence" unless NJ has a statute that says otherwise wrt handgun possession in a hotel room.
2. "Expectations of privacy" are between you and the hotel. Any room charges are private contracts between you, and the hotel. You are not renting your room from the New Jersey State Police, you do not intend to reside in NJ, so as far as they're concerned you are in transit, same as if were going down the highway. You may well be committing a felony when you unbox a handgun in your NJ hotel room.[/quot

Maybe. The point I'm making here is that the police CANNOT simply enter and search my hotel room, and neither can the hotel staff, without PC and a warrant.

The "reasonable expectation of privacy" is a legal concept that constrains police search and seizure activities. The courts have ruled quite clearly and definitively that a hotel room occupant has a reasonable expectation of privacy in that hotel room while he's staying there and that therefore the police are required to get a warrant unless there are exigent circumstances justifying warrantless entry. Random hotel room searches by the police are unconstitutional.

So if I am committing a felony, which I'm not because NJ law does not restrict the possession of a handgun in one's residence (domicile), temporary or otherwise, or in one's business, or on one's private property only to RESIDENTS, unless I have to shoot an intruder and so long as I act responsibly with my firearm, nobody will have any PC upon which to obtain a search warrant. The only regulations on residents is that they obtain a firearms owners card and that the purchase of a handgun within NJ be pursuant to the licensing and background check laws. But it is explicitly NOT illegal to possess a handgun in NJ without such a card, which is ONLY required for the PURCHASE of a handgun. If you already owned one before the law was put in place, you don't have to go get one unless you buy another handgun. The law explicitly provides that a person has a legal right to keep and bear arms, including handguns, on private property, in their place of residence, in their place of business, and (with conditions) while transporting the firearm lawfully from place to place, to a range or to a gunsmith.
In a box, locked. "In their place of business" means the place of business they own or lease. "On private property means" "Your private property in which you hold some estate, or can verify the owner grants you permission". "Place of residence" would presumably be Colorado for you, since you say that's where you live.


And it's trivial for a cop to seize the room, then obtain either consent or a warrant to make whatever turns up admissible. Exigent circumstances are the hotel owner requested it, which they'll be happy to do after the fact if any evidence of wrongdoing was found. If the cops want you, they'll bring a game warden too. He'll usually have powers of search and seizure the police don't have.

This is something for a judge to decide after a trial date is set though. Meanwhile, you're out your pistol, bond, a cab ride, and whatever it costs to retain local representation, until at least a verdict. And if that verdict is a felony conviction, that would suck ass in Jersey.

"Better judged by 12 than carried by 6 bla bla bla" - That's bullshit coming from someone who took a job riding around in traffic all day. Who deliberately brought a handgun 1800 miles to carry in a box in a commercial vehicle in a state where it's illegal to possess a handgun without a permit. Millions of people raise their children in NY/NJ to adjusted and productive lives without ever touching a pistol, yet you want one to be by yourself in a high-rise hotel room? Dam.


Does your employer know you're packing without a license?

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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by Seth » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:50 am

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

Why is that the way it should be? Because you don't like handguns? Who the fuck do you think you are to interfere with the peaceable activities of others?
What a moronic response. BG was describing the situation that actually exists in NZ, that is supported by the vast majority of its citizens, not some sort of undemocratic notion he has forced on others. Who the fuck are you to tell them what to do?
Feh.

"Democracy" is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch.

You don't get to tell me that I cannot effectively defend myself, no matter how many of you there may be insisting on trying to do so. That's why it's called a "right."
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by JimC » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:59 am

Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

Why is that the way it should be? Because you don't like handguns? Who the fuck do you think you are to interfere with the peaceable activities of others?
What a moronic response. BG was describing the situation that actually exists in NZ, that is supported by the vast majority of its citizens, not some sort of undemocratic notion he has forced on others. Who the fuck are you to tell them what to do?
Feh.

"Democracy" is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch.

You don't get to tell me that I cannot effectively defend myself, no matter how many of you there may be insisting on trying to do so. That's why it's called a "right."
We're not telling you, in your crazy USA, what you cannot do - I've always said that is up to you guys (although I reserve the right to point out the consequences which flow, such as your absurdly high murder rate).

Don't tell us in Australia, New Zealand and the rest of the civilised world that we need your moronic gun laws and their murderous consequences...
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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by Seth » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:59 am

piscator wrote: "Better judged by 12 than carried by 6 bla bla bla" - That's bullshit coming from someone who took a job riding around in traffic all day. Who deliberately brought a handgun 1800 miles to carry in a box in a commercial vehicle in a state where it's illegal to possess a handgun without a permit.


No, it's illegal to BUY a handgun without a permit, and it's illegal to CARRY a handgun without a permit. It's perfectly legal to own a handgun without a permit. That's an interesting little quirk in the law most people don't know about.\

And it was 2250 miles and the gun is not in a commercial vehicle, it's in my vehicle, where it stays till we're done with NY & NJ and I can legally carry again.
Millions of people raise their children in NY/NJ to adjusted and productive lives without ever touching a pistol, yet you want one to be by yourself in a high-rise hotel room? Dam.


Millions of people are endangering their children and are idiots who voted for other idiots who turned them into sheeple.

I don't carry a gun because I might need it as much as I carry one because someone else, like one of those 12 million idiots who allowed themselves to be disarmed, needs me to save their sorry ass

Does your employer know you're packing without a license?
My employer was asking me about which ankle holster to buy for his Ruger LCP so he could wear it to work right before I came out here....

And I'm not "packing it" I'm lawfully transporting it through the state in accordance with the federal Volker-Mcclure law, which explicitly says I can do so if I'm traveling from a place where the gun is legal to another place where the gun is legal, irrespective of any stops I might make enroute. This assignment is a temporary one and I'll be moving on when I'm done to states where I'm licensed for concealed carry.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by Seth » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:06 am

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

Why is that the way it should be? Because you don't like handguns? Who the fuck do you think you are to interfere with the peaceable activities of others?
What a moronic response. BG was describing the situation that actually exists in NZ, that is supported by the vast majority of its citizens, not some sort of undemocratic notion he has forced on others. Who the fuck are you to tell them what to do?
Feh.

"Democracy" is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch.

You don't get to tell me that I cannot effectively defend myself, no matter how many of you there may be insisting on trying to do so. That's why it's called a "right."
We're not telling you, in your crazy USA, what you cannot do - I've always said that is up to you guys (although I reserve the right to point out the consequences which flow, such as your absurdly high murder rate).

Don't tell us in Australia, New Zealand and the rest of the civilised world that we need your moronic gun laws and their murderous consequences...
I will do exactly that because the right to effective self defense is a universal human right that applies to every person on earth which no other person or persons has the power or authority to infringe upon.

Period.

You're not civilized at all, you're all fucking brain-dead barbarians who don't give a flying fuck how many people get killed because you "democratically" disarmed them to pander to your personal paranoia. To you they are just a statistic and collateral damage in your insane quest to make it stop raining by shoving raindrops back into the clouds with a broomstick.

The blood of every person who is victimized, injured or killed by any criminal, anywhere, ever, is squarely on your hands and the hands of every other person of your ilk who thinks they have the right to secure their own need for the illusion of safety by compromising the safety of others based on the idiotic notion that everyone is a criminal and nobody can be trusted to use their defensive weapons properly.

What you're saying is that you yourself are too much of an untrustworthy and mentally deficient ass that neither you nor anyone else can be trusted to carry a gun without using it improperly or illegally.

Pretty fucking sorry statement about your culture if you ask me.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by Blind groper » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:28 am

Seth

You continue to ignore the basic statistics. Let me repeat them for you.

1. The USA has a murder rate, five times as high as NZ on a per capita basis, and 4.5 times as high as Australia.
2. Americans who own hand guns have twice the probability of getting murdered as those who do not.
3. Half of all murders in the USA are done with hand guns, and only one sixth with other firearms.
4. Among the 24 richest nations, there is a clear cut correlation between percentage of people owning firearms, and the murder rate, with one exception, which is Switzerland, and Switzerland has just about the highest suicide rate in Europe. Those suicides mainly done with guns. They don't use those guns to kill other people. Just themselves.

The nations with strong gun control have a much lower murder rate, and the number of murders done with guns falls to very low levels.

Having easy gun ownership translates into lots of people being killed. Even without taking into account the people killed, what of those maimed for life with guns. Remember that (excluding successful homicides and suicides) there are nearly 80,000 people every year in the USA who get a bullet pass through some part of their anatomy, and a hell of a lot of them are permanently maimed, or suffer extreme brain damage.

Gun control, via licences or other means, is eminently desirable.

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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by Seth » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:47 am

Blind groper wrote:Seth

You continue to ignore the basic statistics. Let me repeat them for you.

1. The USA has a murder rate, five times as high as NZ on a per capita basis, and 4.5 times as high as Australia.
2. Americans who own hand guns have twice the probability of getting murdered as those who do not.
3. Half of all murders in the USA are done with hand guns, and only one sixth with other firearms.
4. Among the 24 richest nations, there is a clear cut correlation between percentage of people owning firearms, and the murder rate, with one exception, which is Switzerland, and Switzerland has just about the highest suicide rate in Europe. Those suicides mainly done with guns. They don't use those guns to kill other people. Just themselves.

The nations with strong gun control have a much lower murder rate, and the number of murders done with guns falls to very low levels.

Having easy gun ownership translates into lots of people being killed. Even without taking into account the people killed, what of those maimed for life with guns. Remember that (excluding successful homicides and suicides) there are nearly 80,000 people every year in the USA who get a bullet pass through some part of their anatomy, and a hell of a lot of them are permanently maimed, or suffer extreme brain damage.

Gun control, via licences or other means, is eminently desirable.
It's not a statistical argument BG. I've told you this before. You have no right to reduce anyone's life to a statistical value that says "your life is only worth what we say it is based on our calculation of past performance with respect to violent crime." Any idiot knows that past performance is not a predictor of future performance anywhere for anything. Your calculus says, in effect, "I don't mind that X number of people are killed or victimized by criminals because they were denied the arms they needed to defend themselves because I calculate that they are acceptable losses in the equation I'm using to justify banning guns."

Put another way, "You can't have a gun and neither can any other law-abiding citizen because if we ban guns criminals won't have access to as many guns (never "no guns"), but when a criminal does get a gun and kills you, well, too fucking bad because our social programming is more important than your life and you are merely a martyr to the cause of hoplophobia."

Fuck off with that bullshit.

Nobody's a statistic in your bullshit argument. No one can be sacrificed on the altar of your statistical arrogance. No one is required to suffer unnecessary risk because you think that their ability to defend themselves is unnecessary. You get to decide if YOUR ability to defend yourself is necessary or unnecessary and you get to choose how to peaceably arm and prepare yourself for such an eventuality. You don't get to impose that decision on anyone else at all, ever, because their lives are just exactly as important and valuable as your life is.

If I were to prove to you scientifically and without any doubt whatsoever that if I shoot you in the head and kill you, that act will put an end to violent crime worldwide forever, will you volunteer to be shot in the head?

I don't think so.

More pertinently however, would you object to being INVOLUNTARILY executed as a martyr to the cause of ending criminal violence if the collective decides that it can stop crime by killing you?

No?

Then why the fuck do you think you or anybody else gets to make this decision for any other person?

Put up or shut up.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by Seth » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:50 am

Blind groper wrote:
Gun control, via licences or other means, is eminently desirable.
How facile you are in completely ignoring my detailed argument regarding an appropriate and constitutional method of achieving your desired goal.

You don't even acknowledge it.

Fuck off.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: And that's WHY we carry them...

Post by piscator » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:12 am

Seth wrote:Image

This shit's painful to read.

:pop:

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