And that's WHY we carry them...

[Blind groper]

Seth

Let me point out the flaw in your illogic.

Every country in te western world EXCEPT the USA has already accomplished what you claim is impossible. We have removed concealed weapons from everyone, including 99.999% of criminals. We do not get shootings from people pulling out concealed weapons, because next to no one has weapons that can be concealed. And our murder rates are 20 to 25% of that of the USA.

It can be done. It has been done. And in the USA it should be done.

[Seth]

Seth

Let me point out the flaw in your illogic.

Every country in te western world EXCEPT the USA has already accomplished what you claim is impossible. We have removed concealed weapons from everyone, including 99.999% of criminals. We do not get shootings from people pulling out concealed weapons, because next to no one has weapons that can be concealed. And our murder rates are 20 to 25% of that of the USA.

It can be done. It has been done. And in the USA it should be done.

And yet criminals all over the world continue to attack, kill, wound and victimize unarmed victims using all sorts of weapons including their feet and hands.

So, what that means is you're full of shit.

[Seth]

US
What One Recent Study Found About Murder Rates and Concealed Carry Permits Is Likely to Make Gun Owners Smile
Jul. 10, 2014 10:15am Liz Klimas
981
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More than twice as many Americans now hold concealed carry permits compared to seven years ago, and a new study is pointing out a drop in murder and violent crime rates during this same time frame.

The Crime Prevention Research Center released its Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States report Wednesday, revealing that 11.1 million Americans now hold concealed carry permits, while about 4.6 million carried them in 2007.

With the last concealed carry report from the Government Accountability Office three years ago indicating that about 8 million Americans held permits, the research center said its data analysis shows concealed carry permitting is “growing at faster and faster rates.”

The report also notes that based on data from 2007 and estimates from 2013 murder rates have fallen about 22 percent and violent crime rates have fallen by the same percentage as well.

The report acknowledges that many factors, not just the number of concealed carry permits, contribute to crime rates in different areas. Looking though at how crime rates varied before and after there were changes to permitting rules, “our analysis suggests that each 1 percentage point increase in the percent of the adult population holding permits is roughly associated with a 1.4 percent drop in the murder rate.”
The number of concealed carry permits issued compared with murder rates. (Image source: Crime Prevention Research Center)

The number of concealed carry permits issued compared with murder rates. (Image source: Crime Prevention Research Center)

The report says that more than 10 percent of the adult population in South Dakota, Indiana and Alabama now hold concealed carry permits, while 8 percent of the adult population in eight other states have permits.

Though the rate of permits being issued has grown, the report details how it might have more difficult to obtain them over time:

Each $10 increase in fees reduces the percent of adults with permits by about a half a percentage point.
Each 10 years that the permit law is in effect increases the percent of adults with permits by 1.5 percentage points.
Giving government officials discretion in who gets permits, reduces the percent of adults with get permits by more than two-thirds.

States with 8 percent or more of the adult population holding concealed carry permits. (Image source: Crime Prevention Research Center)

States with 8 percent or more of the adult population holding concealed carry permits. (Image source: Crime Prevention Research Center)

For those who might argue that increasing the number of concealed carry permits could lead to more crime, the report delves into whether permit holders are law abiding.

“Consider the two large states at the front of the current debate, Florida and Texas: Both states provide easy web access to detailed records of permit holders,” the report says. “During over two decades, from October 1, 1987 to May 31, 2014, Florida has issued permits to more than 2.64 million people, with the average person holding a permit for more than a decade.3 Few — 168 (about 0.006 [percent]) — have had their permits revoked for any type of firearms related violation, the most common being accidentally carrying a concealed handgun into a gun-free zone such as a school or an airport, not threats or acts of violence. It is an annual rate of 0.0002 percent.”

It also notes that the already low rate of permits being revoked is also declining.

“Over the last 77 months from January 2008 through May 2014, just 4 permits have been revoked for firearms-related violations. With an average of about 875,000 active permit holders per year during those years, the annual revocation rate for firearms related violations is 0.00007 percent — 7 one hundred thousandths of 1 percentage point,” the report says.

Read the Crime Prevention Research Center’s full report.

The Crime Prevention Research Center was created by economist and researcher John Lott earlier this year to “advance the scientific understanding of the relationship between laws regulating the ownership or use of guns, crime and public safety.”

“When you allow people to carry concealed handguns, you see changes in the behavior of criminals,” Lott told Fox News about the recent study’s findings. “Some criminals stop committing crimes, others move on to crimes in which they don’t come into contact with victims and others actually move to areas where they have less fear of being confronted by armed victims.”

Now for BG's ad hominem tu quoque fallacy in 3....2....1....

[Tero]

Yessirreee. The NRA peer reviewed social science.

[piscator]

No detail is too small in either of my chosen professions. I sell a high-line professional technical service to sophisticated clients, and a fuck up can not only burn my 30 years of professional reputation, but also put a dozen people, mostly breadwinners, out of work. And in the odd season I take a small boat full of hooks and machinery out in the Gulf of Alaska to collect fish to trade for $$ in the least man-killing way possible, given regulatory constraints.


I not only have to know the correct AutoCad linetype to comply with the Municipality of Anchorage Platting Standards for a AKDOT&PF HAACP Type 4 curb cut (and Leica TPS Descriptor Code and MOA GIS attribute syntax for same) to get paid,
I have to know that #3 seacock seal below the USCG Type II marine macerator toilet is functioning properly, and that the best gap for cool humid rainforesty air for a REM37BY plug in a Continental O-470-L is .018",
else I might have to jettison my vehicle or drown in shit before I intend.


Then again, there's always the odd chance of a mega-earthquake or massive volcanic eruptions generating stupendous tsunamis, 10-foot snowstorms, 100+ knot winds causing land/snowslides, 1200-lb bears, 1200-lb moose, 1200-lb buffalo...so I like to keep on the sunny side!

Actually you just have to know there's a linetype specification and a seacock regulation. The rest is an exercise in looking shit up. Which reminds me, I still have my Autocad 12 manuals lurking around somewhere, even though I haven't touched the program in a decade or more.

Here you go. Have at it.

http://www.dot.state.ak.us/stwddes/dcsp ... geng.shtml

http://www.muni.org/Departments/works/p ... tails.aspx

The clock's running, so decide how much time you can allot to one of hundreds of details on a run of-the-mill Anchorage topographic survey that covers a lighted street intersection with a pedestrian crosswalk.

But hey, Alaskans are the epitome of grizzled outbackers, so you've got my respect.

Most of us are douchebags that don't last 2 years here. Just long enough to vote and collect a PFD before they fuck off to someplace more conventional. The rest of us are equally split between chronic inebriates and pure awesome. I still don't know where I fit in.

[MrJonno]

The conclusion should be perfectly obvious to anyone with even a few brain cells: if you disarm everyone except the bad guy, nobody's going to be able to rise to anyone's defense and you're all going to fucking DIE because some idiot thinks banning guns means nobody has a gun.

And you obviously don't get it if you have the gun you are the 'bad' guy, less guns less bad guys that simple

And if you are really unlucky and meet someone that want to kill you then you die, what you think you are charge of whether you live or die or something. Accept it your life can be snuffed out at random if someone really wants to and there is nothing you can do about it , obviously your ego can't cope with that concept but mine can. I don't have a right to be alive no one does I'm just lucky to be and one day that luck will run out

[piscator]

Americans have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We derive these rights from the Mitichlorians, who made them self-evident.

[piscator]

Seth

Let me point out the flaw in your illogic.

Every country in te western world EXCEPT the USA has already accomplished what you claim is impossible. We have removed concealed weapons from everyone, including 99.999% of criminals. We do not get shootings from people pulling out concealed weapons, because next to no one has weapons that can be concealed. And our murder rates are 20 to 25% of that of the USA.

It can be done. It has been done. And in the USA it should be done.

1. Get enough Americans interested in repealing the 2nd Amendment
2. Get all the guns
3. ???
4. Profit!!!

[Seth]

The conclusion should be perfectly obvious to anyone with even a few brain cells: if you disarm everyone except the bad guy, nobody's going to be able to rise to anyone's defense and you're all going to fucking DIE because some idiot thinks banning guns means nobody has a gun.

And you obviously don't get it if you have the gun you are the 'bad' guy, less guns less bad guys that simple

What idiocy.

And if you are really unlucky and meet someone that want to kill you then you die,

No, YOU die. I MIGHT die, or he might die, or neither of us might die.

what you think you are charge of whether you live or die or something.

In many cases yes. However it is true that sometimes you die. That's no reason not to take actions to protect and prolong your life. Well, I don't actually mean YOU you, I was speaking of the theoretical "you." You can fuck off and die any old time.

Accept it your life can be snuffed out at random if someone really wants to and there is nothing you can do about it

And what if someone doesn't want to take MY life, but is trying to take someone else's life and I'm in a position to prevent that?

, obviously your ego can't cope with that concept but mine can.

Why don't you just dump a can of gasoline over your head and light a match and see if random vapors will ignite.

I don't have a right to be alive no one does I'm just lucky to be and one day that luck will run out

Maybe you don't, but I do.

[Blind groper]

In the midst of all this, there is a clear cut correlation. If we look at the richest 24 nations, then gun ownership correlates closely with murder rate.

1. USA, most guns, most murders.
2. Finland. Second most guns. Second most murders.
3. Canada. Second highest gun ownership amongst English speakers. Second highest murder rate among English speaking nations.
4. Britain, NZ, Australia. Lowest gun ownership among English speakers. Lowest murder rate among English speaking nations.
5. Japan. Lowest gun ownership and lowest murder rate among the 24.

Switzerland is an exception, having high gun wnership, but low murder rate. Interestingly, though, the Swiss army had to prevent ammunition being taken home to lower the suicide rate.

Conclusion : More guns = more murders.

[MrJonno]

Switzerland is an exception, having high gun wnership, but low murder rate. Interestingly, though, the Swiss army had to prevent ammunition being taken home to lower the suicide rate.

Switzerland has relatively tight gun laws, I've worked there myself (for the UN) and the only guns you will see in any city are the police/security same as anywhere else

They like their sports but the carrying of any firearm loaded (or even easily accessible) outside those events will get you into a lot of trouble.

[JimC]

BG.... Why do you care about guns in the US so much?? American gun culture is (thankfully) one of the few things that the US isn't exporting to the rest of the world. Who cares what they do to themselves??

Seth, at least, berates the rest of the world for not moving into the gun-fuelled paradise that is the US today...

[NuclMan]

Wot?

Surprised you don't think there's an export of US gun-culture to the rest of the world. I see and hear it often as a Canadian; I couldn't even name the NRA equivialent up here off the top of my head.

[pErvinalia]

There's more to the world than Canadia. I guess it's not a surprise you get it there, as you share a land border and a western culture with them. Thankfully we don't get it here in Australia.

[rainbow]

BG.... Why do you care about guns in the US so much?? American gun culture is (thankfully) one of the few things that the US isn't exporting to the rest of the world. Who cares what they do to themselves??

Seth, at least, berates the rest of the world for not moving into the gun-fuelled paradise that is the US today...

Didn't see any guns there on my recent trip, except for police.

...but then I was in the civilised part.