Yessiree that UK socialized medicine is great!

[Seth]

That decision was made by a panel of doctors/nurses/social workers the same panel you will see in any first world hospital even the US. You can call it a death panel , or a cancer care panel doesnt really matter its how decent medicine work

It's a death panel because their decision is binding on the patient because they control the purse strings. Here in the US you may have a panel reviewing cases for treatment recommendations, but they ALWAYS (unless they are government doctors like the VA or Medicare) consult with the patient and the patient's relatives, and if the patient does not agree, they will treat the individual aggressively.

The obvious difference is that the UK has death panels that sentence sick people to die because they don't want to treat them whereas the US treats everyone who needs treatment and doesn't presume to tell people they aren't eligible for medical care.

As for overall NHS budget we spend about half what the US does on medical care and have similar or better results in most cases.

Complete bullshit.

[MrJonno]

It's a death panel because their decision is binding on the patient because they control the purse strings. Here in the US you may have a panel reviewing cases for treatment recommendations, but they ALWAYS (unless they are government doctors like the VA or Medicare) consult with the patient and the patient's relatives, and if the patient does not agree, they will treat the individual aggressively

Yes because if a patient wants a drug and the doctor doesn't recommend it the patient gets it, only on planet Seth. It's actually assault to give a patient treatment even if the patient wants it if a doctor thinks its a poor treatment.

I know I will go to the doctor and ask for a liver transplant, don't need one but what does my doctor know he is probably an atheist socialist or even worse a muslim.

Face it you're the doctor's bitch not a customer regardless of what hospital you go to , they are the 10 year + trained professionals and on the whole you don't have a lot to contribute to the situation bar following the doctors instructions. Of course if you think you are 'independent' that might cause problems for some people's ego's luckily I don't suffer from the disease of thinking I'm a rugged self-reliant individual

[Seth]

It's a death panel because their decision is binding on the patient because they control the purse strings. Here in the US you may have a panel reviewing cases for treatment recommendations, but they ALWAYS (unless they are government doctors like the VA or Medicare) consult with the patient and the patient's relatives, and if the patient does not agree, they will treat the individual aggressively

Yes because if a patient wants a drug and the doctor doesn't recommend it the patient gets it, only on planet Seth. It's actually assault to give a patient treatment even if the patient wants it if a doctor thinks its a poor treatment.

Depends on what you mean by "poor treatment." What we're talking about here is "no treatment." Big difference.

Face it you're the doctor's bitch not a customer regardless of what hospital you go to

No, when you're paying him his interest is in keeping you alive as long as possible, if for no other reason than that it keeps you paying the bills. The other reason is, of course, that in a free market economy, if you don't like how your doctor treats you, you can fire him and hire another one. On the other hand, when he works for the state and the state says "if you keep that old fucker alive any longer we're not going to pay you" his motivation changes rather dramatically. And you can't fire a government doctor.

I prefer the free market capitalist profit incentive to be at work in my doctor's mind, not the Marxist "she's just another prole we can do without because she contributes nothing to the collective and worse, costs me money to keep alive."

[MrJonno]

What possible incentive does a doctor if acting on money alone has in keeping a patient alive or even healthy. Very slow painful death over a couple of years is probably going to make him more money than a long healthy life

[Seth]

What possible incentive does a doctor if acting on money alone has in keeping a patient alive or even healthy. Very slow painful death over a couple of years is probably going to make him more money than a long healthy life

Well, there are other checks and balances, like the courts...which aren't effective in socialized medicine because you can't sue your own government, generally. In a free market however, if your doctor isn't making you better, you fire him and find another. In socialized medicine you get whichever underpaid, overworked intern they assign to you and you're completely fucked if you don't like him or her.

[MrJonno]

Well, there are other checks and balances, like the courts...which aren't effective in socialized medicine because you can't sue your own government

You can't sue the government really?, everyone sues the government from patients to soldiers (on health and safety grounds).

Government has to be the most sued entity on the planet, there are entire industries, in fact entire companies set up just to sue one small part of government.

Not necessary a good situation but that how it is

[MrJonno]

In a free market however, if your doctor isn't making you better, you fire him and find another

No generally you tend to die, or you don't even know how successful the treatment is or isnt

For most people medical care is basically a commodity, one doctor will treat you pretty much like any other regardless of where you are in the 1st world. You really think there is mega drugs that only billionaires get?

[Seth]

In a free market however, if your doctor isn't making you better, you fire him and find another

No generally you tend to die, or you don't even know how successful the treatment is or isnt

Oh bullshit.

For most people medical care is basically a commodity, one doctor will treat you pretty much like any other regardless of where you are in the 1st world. You really think there is mega drugs that only billionaires get?

Of course it's a commodity. That's the point. As a commodity the free market makes it available when needed and the consumer gets to pick and choose which commodity and which provider gives them the best perceived value. As to variations in treatment that's like saying that one mechanic is as good as another, which is clearly not the case. Both of them can change your oil, but one of them may also inspect the car and warn you of potential problems while the other may take a razor blade to your belts in hopes of getting more business. You decide who treats you better and go with that person.

It's no different with doctors.

Except socialize medicine doctors of course, where you don't get any choices at all. You get what the government gives you and you live or die with that decision without any right or opportunity to find someone you like better.

[Seth]

Well, there are other checks and balances, like the courts...which aren't effective in socialized medicine because you can't sue your own government

You can't sue the government really?, everyone sues the government from patients to soldiers (on health and safety grounds).

Government has to be the most sued entity on the planet, there are entire industries, in fact entire companies set up just to sue one small part of government.

Not necessary a good situation but that how it is

Go look up "sovereign immunity."

In the US, you cannot sue the federal government without its permission. Which is not to say that it doesn't give that permission, but it doesn't have to.

[Azathoth]

Except socialize medicine doctors of course, where you don't get any choices at all. You get what the government gives you and you live or die with that decision without any right or opportunity to find someone you like better.

Not true, you can ask for a second opinion within the NHS. You don't even have to go private although that is also an option if you want to.

[MrJonno]

Except socialize medicine doctors of course, where you don't get any choices at all. You get what the government gives you and you live or die with that decision without any right or opportunity to find someone you like better.

Not true, you can ask for a second opinion within the NHS. You don't even have to go private although that is also an option if you want to.

But they won't replace your arm with a built in machine gun will they

[Seth]

Except socialize medicine doctors of course, where you don't get any choices at all. You get what the government gives you and you live or die with that decision without any right or opportunity to find someone you like better.

Not true, you can ask for a second opinion within the NHS. You don't even have to go private although that is also an option if you want to.

And a second opinion from another government doctor who is being paid by the same bureaucrat who told your first doctor you're too expensive to treat is going to be of value how, exactly?

And if you think the NHS is going to take the recommendation of a private doctor over their employee, you're delusional.

[piscator]

Except socialize medicine doctors of course, where you don't get any choices at all. You get what the government gives you and you live or die with that decision without any right or opportunity to find someone you like better.

Not true, you can ask for a second opinion within the NHS. You don't even have to go private although that is also an option if you want to.

And a second opinion from another government doctor who is being paid by the same bureaucrat who told your first doctor you're too expensive to treat is going to be of value how, exactly?

And if you think the NHS is going to take the recommendation of a private doctor over their employee, you're delusional.

So let's imagine the NHS could require signing an instrument that would mandate a fixed sum limit of treatment after a certain multiple of average life expectancy. A citizen would have to sign the contract some time in his 30s, in order to receive NHS services beyond age 40 - This contrivance would be more morally preferable in your book than the NHS agreeing with doctors that it's horribly invasive and painful, and very risky, and an odd shot, and a certain waste of resources to give a 104-year-old in ICU with N-H lymphoma and no living family a complete bone marrow transplant?

[Hermit]

Except socialize medicine doctors of course, where you don't get any choices at all. You get what the government gives you and you live or die with that decision without any right or opportunity to find someone you like better.

That's not the case in Australia. We have plenty of doctors running their own private practice, private medical centres and private hospitals. They charge their fees to the government. Patients can choose which doctor or hospital to seek treatment from.

[piscator]

Except socialize medicine doctors of course, where you don't get any choices at all. You get what the government gives you and you live or die with that decision without any right or opportunity to find someone you like better.

That's not the case in Australia. We have plenty of doctors running their own private practice, private medical centres and private hospitals. They charge their fees to the government. Patients can choose which doctor or hospital to seek treatment from.

That's something we'll fix when we take over. You'll go to the doctors on your insurance company list, or byGod pay for it yourself!