Another shot at the case against gnus

[Hermit]

Yes, there were many and varied reasons for shootings at schools. Some were justifiable, not many were classifiable as mass killings, some did not even entail injury to anybody, some were among hoodies and so on. Just the same there were 74 of them since the Newtown, Connecticut, 18 months ago. Meanwhile there were 0 in Australia. Might that possibly have anything at all to do with the differences in the availability of firearms?

I don't care about YOUR availability, I care about mine.
BTW: Gun and ammunition shortage hits farmers, security contractors and sporting shooters after US rush

A shortage of guns and ammunition in the US has spread to Australian shores, causing problems for farmers, security contractors and sporting shooters across the country.

Ammo shortage, huh? Because of hoarding by US gun nuts? I could say something like "Too bad. So sad", except the blokes at the local rifle club three kilometres down the road from me apparently didn't get the memo about the shortage.

Meanwhile, I am happy to express my opinion that 0 shootings in Australian schools is a good thing. Not a valuable opinion, I know, but I kind of like it just the same. YMMV.

[Seth]

I think any reasonable person would conclude that the rate of death by guns went up when the law was introduced. One can be be critical, neutral or (as Seth seems to be) pleased that more of those dang varmints got plumb filled with lead...

Well, when you mendaciously use "rate of death" rather than referring to an increase in criminal use of firearms, that's what you get. But it's true that I'm comfortable with criminals getting shot more often by their victims, since that's their fault and each of those deaths acts as a deterrent to other criminals who might care to make the same bad life decisions.

Not every death is a bad thing I'm afraid. Life is a thing to be valued, right up until the individual forfeits his right to have his life valued by threatening the lives of others. At that point it becomes a matter of public safety and sanitation and his life is far, far less important than that of innocent persons.

[Seth]

Ammo shortage, huh? Because of hoarding by US gun nuts?

Absolutely. Smart gun owners stockpile as much ammo as they can afford because a) it's available; b) it's likely cheaper now than it will be in the future, after hoplophobes enact burdensome regulations intended to dissuade the purchase of ammunition since they've lost the battle to ban guns; c) fixed ammunition lasts for a long, long time and will largely retain its value decades into the future and may in fact be more valuable than gold one day; and d) we might need all that ammo one of these days.

[Gallstones]

Who said what in the current Australian gun crime debate

Police Association of NSW 27 February 2013:

SYDNEY, Feb 27 AAP - NSW Attorney General Greg Smith says there’s a long way to go until drive-by shootings in western Sydney are brought under control.
Addressing a Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research (BOCSAR) conference in Sydney, Mr Smith said the problem of drive-by shootings was “smaller now than it was in 2001”.
However, he conceded the coalition government had not yet been able to fully combat it across western Sydney.
“It’s of great concern and we still have a long way to go in bringing it fully under control,” Mr Smith told the conference.
The comments come after a wave of shootings in the city’s west that have forced NSW police to establish Operation Apollo, a special strike force targeting gun crime.

Could The President’s Data on Australian Gun Crime Be Wrong?
By Casey Slaughter June 11, 2014

I recently moved to Melbourne Australia to finish up a graduate degree in mining engineering. Since starting my degree in Missouri I have started a small collection of firearms and started keeping track of the politics regarding them and the statistics (as an engineer I love data).
...
Since moving down here last September I have heard of 3 or 4 shootings, many more stabbings and violent attacks but people just seem to brush it oft. There’s usually at least a pair of armed guards at all the major subway/metro stations and designated “safety zones” (these are really just some extra lights shining on a painted box on the platform next to a police call box). I have passed armed guards on the street and even here on campus.

Not sure where I am going with this except that Obama’s statements that this never happens outside the US are blatant falsehoods (as you well know).
...
Police warn on web dangers after buyers bash man who sold car on classifieds site Gumtree

Alex White, Herald Sun June 10, 2014
An increasing number of people are finding themselves the unwitting victims of threats, robberies, and bashings after placing or answering classified advertisements on sales websites, police say.
...
Detective Senior Sergeant Daniel Basile warned that violent thugs across Melbourne were using the websites to select unsuspecting victims.

“It is happening quite a bit, and a lot of people don’t report it,’’ he said.
...In extreme cases, robbers have put false advertisements online to lure their unsuspecting victims.

Mr Heier has now been left with a medical bill of thousands of dollars.

How is it possible that Jonathan Heier has "a medical bill of thousands of dollars" when Australia has such wonderful socialized medicine?

[JimC]

No amount of single anecdotes alters the vast statistical difference between Oz and the US in terms of gun crimes. We don't have to have zero gun crime to make the argument...

[Seth]

No amount of single anecdotes alters the vast statistical difference between Oz and the US in terms of gun crimes. We don't have to have zero gun crime to make the argument...

You're right, you don't have to have zero gun crime, you have to have ZERO CRIME of any sort.

You see, the point of an armed citizenry is that each and every individual in a society has an unalienable and fundamental right to keep and bear those arms he or she deems suitable for personal defense against crime. Any crime whatsoever, but most pertinently violent crime.

So long as any crime exists in OZ, a limitation on the ability of each and every citizen to be armed (at their choice) for self defense makes that individual, and all others in the same circumstances (which means everyone BUT the police in OZ) a helpless victim against any crime that might be committed against them. This violates their UN guaranteed fundamental human rights, and therefore your government is violating the UN Charter of Human Rights by disarming its citizenry.

It's utterly irrelevant how many criminal uses of firearms result in how many deaths, injuries or violations of innocent citizens, all that counts is when ONE person is victimized by a criminal, armed or not, if that person could even have potentially thwarted or prevented the crime by being armed. You see, being an armed law-abiding citizen cannot be in any way compared to being an armed criminal, and any such comparison (which is very common) is entirely fallacious and mendacious.

[Gallstones]

Securing Your Six: Teacher's Edition

Whether it's psychology, sociology, or a culture of deconstruction we fail to address what the actual problem is with the Spree Killer. Because in all frankness it is neither the before, nor the after, but the during we must contend with.

Having spent close to two decades running backgrounds, building profiles, and trying to predict what people will or won't do despite indicators to potential behavior there are no guarantees as to a "when". Let alone an "if ever" that the behavior of a solitary "known" individual will in fact act upon your predictions.

While you may possess a list of "knowns" you also have the "when's" and "where's". Given this how can we ever expect to stop some "unknown"?

You of course can not.
...
More realistically based is what can one individual, one teacher, one principal, do against a psychopath bent on the killing of as many people and children as possible? While it is quite a noble feat to lay one's body in front of a door to stop a rampaging killer there is a far better solution, even if one appears to be unarmed in the gun sense.

The solution is not in tech but, rather in history.

"History?" you think aloud.

History indeed.
...
Whether you choose to look at Columbine, Jonesboro or Sandy Hook what you are examining are attackers laying siege to a occupied establishment, both on the large scale (a school) and the small scale (the individual classroom). It is the classroom to which we are looking at defending.

One killer against One room.

Everything begins at the door. The door is a chokepoint. That narrow gap which decreases an aggressor's ability to attack, while increasing your odds for a successful defense. Everything depends upon what does or does not happen here. Therefore THE primary concern is to prevent an active shooter from gaining entry to the room. Locking a door is a problem if the door doesn't have locks. Reasoning as to why they don't is not the objective here. Creating a solution is.
...
Yet access can be denied to a room without ever locking a door
...
What do you have planned right now that prevents a gun man from entering your classroom and murdering everyone in it?

Life and death are just that basic. If an aggressor can not enter he can not win.
...
The 90s feel good advice of "hiding & cowering" has proven to be what the rest of us always knew. Fatal.

Much like the concept of a "lock down" with no locks fails in rather short fashion the legions of ignorant peaceniks and cowards have discovered that desk chairs and hands clasped over the back of heads do not actually stop bullets.

Much more at the link.

[JimC]

No amount of single anecdotes alters the vast statistical difference between Oz and the US in terms of gun crimes. We don't have to have zero gun crime to make the argument...

You're right, you don't have to have zero gun crime, you have to have ZERO CRIME of any sort.

You see, the point of an armed citizenry is that each and every individual in a society has an unalienable and fundamental right to keep and bear those arms he or she deems suitable for personal defense against crime. Any crime whatsoever, but most pertinently violent crime.

So long as any crime exists in OZ, a limitation on the ability of each and every citizen to be armed (at their choice) for self defense makes that individual, and all others in the same circumstances (which means everyone BUT the police in OZ) a helpless victim against any crime that might be committed against them. This violates their UN guaranteed fundamental human rights, and therefore your government is violating the UN Charter of Human Rights by disarming its citizenry.

It's utterly irrelevant how many criminal uses of firearms result in how many deaths, injuries or violations of innocent citizens, all that counts is when ONE person is victimized by a criminal, armed or not, if that person could even have potentially thwarted or prevented the crime by being armed. You see, being an armed law-abiding citizen cannot be in any way compared to being an armed criminal, and any such comparison (which is very common) is entirely fallacious and mendacious.

What utter and complete bullshit. Like most of the civilised world, we rather prefer to have fewer morons with guns.

[rainbow]

Who said what in the current Australian gun crime debate

Police Association of NSW 27 February 2013:

SYDNEY, Feb 27 AAP - NSW Attorney General Greg Smith says there’s a long way to go until drive-by shootings in western Sydney are brought under control.
Addressing a Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research (BOCSAR) conference in Sydney, Mr Smith said the problem of drive-by shootings was “smaller now than it was in 2001”.
However, he conceded the coalition government had not yet been able to fully combat it across western Sydney.
“It’s of great concern and we still have a long way to go in bringing it fully under control,” Mr Smith told the conference.
The comments come after a wave of shootings in the city’s west that have forced NSW police to establish Operation Apollo, a special strike force targeting gun crime.

Could The President’s Data on Australian Gun Crime Be Wrong?
By Casey Slaughter June 11, 2014

I recently moved to Melbourne Australia to finish up a graduate degree in mining engineering. Since starting my degree in Missouri I have started a small collection of firearms and started keeping track of the politics regarding them and the statistics (as an engineer I love data).
...
Since moving down here last September I have heard of 3 or 4 shootings, many more stabbings and violent attacks but people just seem to brush it oft. There’s usually at least a pair of armed guards at all the major subway/metro stations and designated “safety zones” (these are really just some extra lights shining on a painted box on the platform next to a police call box). I have passed armed guards on the street and even here on campus.

Not sure where I am going with this except that Obama’s statements that this never happens outside the US are blatant falsehoods (as you well know).
...
Police warn on web dangers after buyers bash man who sold car on classifieds site Gumtree

Alex White, Herald Sun June 10, 2014
An increasing number of people are finding themselves the unwitting victims of threats, robberies, and bashings after placing or answering classified advertisements on sales websites, police say.
...
Detective Senior Sergeant Daniel Basile warned that violent thugs across Melbourne were using the websites to select unsuspecting victims.

“It is happening quite a bit, and a lot of people don’t report it,’’ he said.
...In extreme cases, robbers have put false advertisements online to lure their unsuspecting victims.

Mr Heier has now been left with a medical bill of thousands of dollars.

How is it possible that Jonathan Heier has "a medical bill of thousands of dollars" when Australia has such wonderful socialized medicine?

Clearly, if the robbers had guns and had shot him, he'd have saved himself these bills, but surely funeral costs would need to be taken into account?

[Gallstones]

[Gallstones]

Who said what in the current Australian gun crime debate

Police Association of NSW 27 February 2013:

SYDNEY, Feb 27 AAP - NSW Attorney General Greg Smith says there’s a long way to go until drive-by shootings in western Sydney are brought under control.
Addressing a Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research (BOCSAR) conference in Sydney, Mr Smith said the problem of drive-by shootings was “smaller now than it was in 2001”.
However, he conceded the coalition government had not yet been able to fully combat it across western Sydney.
“It’s of great concern and we still have a long way to go in bringing it fully under control,” Mr Smith told the conference.
The comments come after a wave of shootings in the city’s west that have forced NSW police to establish Operation Apollo, a special strike force targeting gun crime.

Could The President’s Data on Australian Gun Crime Be Wrong?
By Casey Slaughter June 11, 2014

I recently moved to Melbourne Australia to finish up a graduate degree in mining engineering. Since starting my degree in Missouri I have started a small collection of firearms and started keeping track of the politics regarding them and the statistics (as an engineer I love data).
...
Since moving down here last September I have heard of 3 or 4 shootings, many more stabbings and violent attacks but people just seem to brush it oft. There’s usually at least a pair of armed guards at all the major subway/metro stations and designated “safety zones” (these are really just some extra lights shining on a painted box on the platform next to a police call box). I have passed armed guards on the street and even here on campus.

Not sure where I am going with this except that Obama’s statements that this never happens outside the US are blatant falsehoods (as you well know).
...
Police warn on web dangers after buyers bash man who sold car on classifieds site Gumtree

Alex White, Herald Sun June 10, 2014
An increasing number of people are finding themselves the unwitting victims of threats, robberies, and bashings after placing or answering classified advertisements on sales websites, police say.
...
Detective Senior Sergeant Daniel Basile warned that violent thugs across Melbourne were using the websites to select unsuspecting victims.

“It is happening quite a bit, and a lot of people don’t report it,’’ he said.
...In extreme cases, robbers have put false advertisements online to lure their unsuspecting victims.

Mr Heier has now been left with a medical bill of thousands of dollars.

How is it possible that Jonathan Heier has "a medical bill of thousands of dollars" when Australia has such wonderful socialized medicine?

Clearly, if the robbers had guns and had shot him, he'd have saved himself these bills, but surely funeral costs would need to be taken into account?

Is there supposed to be some kind of reasoning or logic in that reply? I think you forgot to include it if so.

[Gallstones]

Columbine Survivor Evan Todd Speaks Out

At 11:29 a.m. on April 20, 1999, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, two high school students entered the Columbine High School library. Two teachers, two librarians and 52 students were hiding there.

Ten minutes had already passed since the first person had called 9-1-1 to report the attack at the school. Harris and Klebold had already set off bombs and killed and wounded students both outside and inside the school. They’d also exchanged shots with a school resource officer from the Jefferson County sheriff’s department, who later said he missed them because he didn’t have his glasses.

When Harris and Klebold retreated to the school, the officer decided to wait for back-up. At this time, 11 of the 13 people killed by Harris and Klebold were still alive.

When they walked into the school’s library, Harris yelled “Get up!” so loudly it can be heard on a 9-1-1 recording at 11:29:18 a.m.

“Fine! I’ll start shooting anyway!” Harris shouted when nobody stood up. He fired a shotgun twice at a desk, not knowing that a student named Evan M. Todd, a 15-year-old sophomore, was hiding beneath it. Todd was hit by wood splinters but not seriously injured.

Todd would hide there for seven minutes before the students-turned-murderers would find him.
...
The Long Journey Back
Todd now says those seven minutes haunt him even more than what happened when the killers found him. They disturb him so much he has felt compelled to speak out in an effort to find solutions.
...
Todd was so changed by those seven minutes at Columbine High, and all it means to be left powerless by a government forcing people to be defenseless, that he said as much to a friend of his, Billy Hallowell, who works for TheBlaze.com. Hallowell asked Todd what he would say to President Obama if he could speak to him. Todd wrote his thoughts out in an email and sent it to Hallowell. Todd’s email was so compelling that Hallowell published it as an open letter to the president.

More at the link.
Letter below

Columbine Survivor’s Open Letter to Obama on Gun Control ~Evan Todd 06.13.14

Mr. President,

As a student who was shot and wounded during the Columbine massacre, I have a few thoughts on the current gun debate. In regards to your gun control initiatives . . .

The evidence is very clear pertaining to the inadequacies of the assault weapons ban. It had little to no effect when it was in place from 1994 until 2004. It was during this time that I personally witnessed two fellow students murder twelve of my classmates and one teacher. The assault weapons ban did not deter these two murderers, nor did the other thirty-something laws that they broke.

Gun ownership is at an all time high. And although tragedies like Columbine and Newtown are exploited by ideologues and special-interest lobbying groups, crime is at an all time low. The people have spoken. Gun store shelves have been emptied. Gun shows are breaking attendance records. Gun manufacturers are sold out and back ordered. Shortages on ammo and firearms are countrywide. The American people have spoken and are telling you that our Second Amendment shall not be infringed.
...
Let me ask you this: Why would you prefer criminals to have the ability to out-gun law-abiding citizens? Under this policy, criminals will still have their 30-round magazines, but the average American will not. Whose side are you on?

Lastly, when did they government get into the business of regulating “needs?” This is yet another example of government overreaching and straying from its intended purpose.
...
Respectfully,

Severely Concerned Citizen, Evan M. Todd

Much more at the link.

[Gallstones]

Gun Control and Mass Murders By John R. Lott Jr. 06.11.10

Contrary to public perception, Western Europe, most of whose countries have much tougher gun laws than the United States, has experienced many of the worst multiple-victim public shootings.
...
The following is a partial list of attacks since 2001. As mentioned, all of them occurred in gun-free zones — places where guns in the hands of civilians are outlawed.

Zug, Switzerland, Sept. 27, 2001: A man whose lawsuits had been denied murdered 14 members of a cantonal parliament.

Tours, France, Oct. 29, 2001: Four people were killed and ten wounded when a French railway worker started shooting at a busy intersection.

Nanterre, France, March 27, 2002: A man killed eight city-council members after a council meeting.

Erfurt, Germany, April 26, 2002: A former student killed 18 at a secondary school.

Freising, Germany, Feb. 19, 2002: Three people killed and one wounded.

Turin, Italy, Oct. 15, 2002: Seven people killed on a hillside overlooking the city.


Madrid, Spain, Oct. 1, 2006: A man killed two employees and wounded another at a company that had fired him.

Emsdetten, Germany, Nov. 20, 2006: A former student murdered eleven people at a high school.

Tuusula, Finland, Nov. 7, 2007: Seven students and the principal killed at a high school.

Naples, Italy, Sept. 18, 2008: Seven dead and two seriously wounded in a public meeting hall. (This incident is not included in the totals given below because it may have involved the Mafia.)

Kauhajoki, Finland, Sept. 23, 2008: Ten people shot to death at a college.

Winnenden, Germany, March 11, 2009: A 17-year-old former student killed 15 people, including nine students and three teachers.

Lyon, France, March 19, 2009: Ten people injured when a man opened fire on a nursery school.

Athens, Greece, April 10, 2009: Three people killed and two injured by a student at a vocational college.

Rotterdam, Netherlands, April 11, 2009: Three people killed and one injured at a crowded café.

Vienna, Austria, May 24, 2009: One dead and 15 wounded in an attack on a Sikh temple.

Espoo, Finland, Dec. 31, 2009: Four people shot to death at a mall.

Cumbria, England, June 2, 2010: Twelve killed by a British taxi driver.

[Hermit]

Guns don't kill people. Waffles do.

[rainbow]

Is there supposed to be some kind of reasoning or logic in that reply? I think you forgot to include it if so.

You want logic?

...and you take the NRA seriously?