DaveDodo007... I mean... Rationalskepticism,lol.

[JimC]

It's clear that Metatron reckons there's overdosing. He did offer a conpiratorial excuse about an unspoken 'they' wanting to mold problem children into the norm so they are easier for society to handle. I'd love to know who his unspoken 'they' are supposed to be.

To me it's pretty obvious that he means teachers and parents - ie, the adults who are responsible for keeping kids under control. They are the ones who suffer when the kids make that job difficult, so they are the ones likely to have a vested interest in making it easier.

How could this lead to over prescription?? Parents and teachers don't prescribe the drugs.

No, but parents, perhaps via teacher suggestions, can take little Johnny along to a doc, and say how much little Freddy has improved since he started the medication, and the doc can shrug his shoulders and give the customers what they want...

Having said that, and strongly suspecting there is over-prescription statistically, I have personally seen marked improvement in student success following intervention by medication. It certainly can work effectively for particular students...

[Seth]

It's clear that Metatron reckons there's overdosing. He did offer a conpiratorial excuse about an unspoken 'they' wanting to mold problem children into the norm so they are easier for society to handle. I'd love to know who his unspoken 'they' are supposed to be.

To me it's pretty obvious that he means teachers and parents - ie, the adults who are responsible for keeping kids under control. They are the ones who suffer when the kids make that job difficult, so they are the ones likely to have a vested interest in making it easier.

How could this lead to over prescription?? Parents and teachers don't prescribe the drugs.

Why do you think big pharma advertises drugs with incomprehensible names to people who don't have a clue about what they need? They do it so that patients will go to their doctor and say "I want that new drug I saw on TV!" The doctor wants to prescribe name-brand drugs because he gets a kickback from the drug company salesmen for doing so.

Parents and teachers are bombarded with false information about ADD and how "Soma" will make everything right and everyone happy and pliant. (I was incredibly amused when somebody actually produced a drug called "Soma" years ago...it seems drug companies read science fiction too)

So they agitate and teachers pressure parents into taking their unruly child to see a "doctor" who diagnoses ADD who then writes a scrip for Soma, which the parents administer because they have been bullied into doing so by the schools, which instead of applying time-tested methods of stimulating attention-giving would rather drug the kids because they get sued if they do what they are supposed to do, which is smack the kid upside the head and shout "PAY ATTENTION!"

It's definitely a conspiracy, one almost as big as the global Marxist conspiracy to rule the world.

[Seth]

He's promoted a conspiracy theory (that drugging kids is done to make them easier for society to handle), and he's alleged that big pharma kickbacks are distorting diagnoses. Whether you technically call the latter a conspiracy theory or not, he's done both.

Jesus Christ, talk about bashing each other over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin....FFS If someone wants to claim it's all a big pharma conspiracy who the fuck cares? If one person's perception of what someone else said is wrong who the fuck cares.

What a bunch of dildos.

Adapt or die, Seth.

I think I'll chuckle instead.

[Seth]

He was banned for being a disruptive troll. Which he was. (although, I disagree with permabans).

One man's "disruptive troll" is another man's freedom fighter and staunch advocate.

That's the whole point. I was banned because I wouldn't kowtow and suck Mod cock and surrender to the conventional wisdom and I refused to compromise or abandon my principals or my arguments in the face of all manner of nasty, ugly personal invective (from you among others) that went entirely unpunished but not unreported.

Quite simply I was banned because I am more intelligent, more articulate, better educated and a much, much better debator than anyone over there except maybe THWOTH.

And those fuckwits just couldn't stand it and started frothing at the mouth when they couldn't get me to admit defeat, so they had to manufacture an "offense" and violate absolutely every moral and ethical principle ever espoused by the members there in order to try to justify banning me.

Hypocritical pinheaded fuckwits, one and all, and they still are...and will always be. This thread is proof of it.

[Seth]

Who knows? Hard to pin that on the moderators though. If you have a place where an emotive subject like politics is being discussed, and there's a large majority of people from one part of the political spectrum, those from opposing parts are likely to feel the heat just by virtue of numbers.

Then there's the fact that so much right wing orthodoxy is such paper thin childish bullshit. It's always going to end up being torn to shreds on a forum specifically dedicated to examining things rationally and skeptically. If people don't want to have to face up to how silly their beliefs are, they probably shouldn't take them to that kind of forum.

There's that arrogant head-up-the-ass Marxism-can-do-no-wrong attitude that infests both places. The reason you banned me is because what you say wasn't true and I was the one shredding your claptrap bullshit arguments and you just couldn't stand it, much less refute it or formulate a cogent argument in favor of your agenda.

[mistermack]

Having said that, and strongly suspecting there is over-prescription statistically, I have personally seen marked improvement in student success following intervention by medication. It certainly can work effectively for particular students...

That's what makes it so difficult. When people see that, it's tempting to start thinking it will do the same for everyone.

But it can work the other way too.
My nephew, a few years ago, was in a terrible state. My sister was really scared that he would top himself. He was not making any sense, and would go running miles and miles at four in the morning, and was clearly not right or happy. It went on for ages and it seemed to be heading for disaster.
He also had bad acne, and was obsessed with it ruining his life.

Eventually, he stopped taking all acne medication, and was from then on a different person.
He's now a cop, totally grounded, no sign whatsoever of the problems he had. It was almost an overnight cure. That's how powerful some side effects can be.

It later came out that a lot of suicides were being attributed to those particular acne drugs.
I don't know if they are still prescribed. They probably are.
I really think those acne drugs could have killed him, if he hadn't stopped taking them.

[Gallstones]

Who knows? Hard to pin that on the moderators though. If you have a place where an emotive subject like politics is being discussed, and there's a large majority of people from one part of the political spectrum, those from opposing parts are likely to feel the heat just by virtue of numbers.

Then there's the fact that so much right wing orthodoxy is such paper thin childish bullshit. It's always going to end up being torn to shreds on a forum specifically dedicated to examining things rationally and skeptically. If people don't want to have to face up to how silly their beliefs are, they probably shouldn't take them to that kind of forum.

Does rationalskepticism have a mission, a self stated purpose?

[Mr.Samsa]

This is an interesting metatron-debate. Beatsong is correct that Metatron didn't say what Samsa is claiming he did. The real question is what is the reason that Metatron believes is behind this argued overdosing. Maybe he's gone the big pharma thing before, I don't know. Or perhaps he is suggesting it is like over prescription of antibiotics. It's not about money, it's about getting annoying patients out of the office.

He didn't say it in as many words but if you read carefuuly all his comments he clearly implies that chidren are being needlessly drugged, presumably for the benefit of Big Pharma. Indeed, in one post he asks Samsa what's in it for him. The Metatron never grew up and doesn't understand how the internet works. This is why he throws tantrums and abuses everyone who doesn't agree with him.

Yes exactly - and that's why Beatsong can't find a single piece of evidence to support his claim that I'm misrepresenting Metatron.

Yep, i just found it. This post - http://www.rationalskepticism.org/psych ... l#p1968568 makes it entirely clear that he thinks it's a big pharma con job. Samsa is right, Beatsong.

Megaphone does say that "these psychoactive drugs dispensed to treat this disorder don't do a fucking thing to cure it. Not a fucking thing" but though I strongly disagree with that opinion I see nothing hinting at conspiracy in it, unless of course profit motive equals conspiracy, but then he has never mentioned profit motive either.

So, once again I find myself being equivocal. Yes, Megadrone is wrong and yes, Mr. Samsa is misrepresenting him in regard to the conspiracy theory theory. At the same time Megadone is most likely correct in so far that drugging 10% of boys with Ritalin is a massive case of overprescription and Samsa is correct in pointing out that drugs like Ritalin do actually work. Neither Meg nor Sam is entirely right or entirely wrong, but in the heat of the debate nuances are easily ignored.

How is Metatron "most likely correct" that prescribing 10% of boys with ritalin is a case of overprescription? Off the top of my head, his figures weren't even accurate as he was confusing diagnostic rate with prescription rate, and ignoring the fact that the evidence strongly shows that ADHD is undertreated - precisely because of bullshit from worried mummies like Metatron who scare other parents away from medication, vaccines, and all those other nasty sciency-things.

If Metatron thinks there is a problem of overprescription then maybe he's right. But the point I kept emphasising in that thread was that he needs evidence to make that claim. Showing that (for the sake of argument) 10% of boys are treated with ritalin doesn't tell us anything. If (hypothetically) 20% of boys actually have ADHD, then we have a serious undertreatment problem. If only 5% of boys actually have ADHD then he might have a point about overprescription. The best evidence that we currently have tells us that there is no clear problem of overprescription and that there is in fact some decent evidence of a possible undertreatment problem (especially in girls where the disorder is hugely underdiagnosed and treated).

The problem is that Metatron doesn't believe in the existence of ADHD at all so for him there is nothing to treat. Even if only .05% of boys were given ritalin he would be making the exact same argument. It's anti-science at its finest.

Yep, i just found it. This post - http://www.rationalskepticism.org/psych ... l#p1968568 makes it entirely clear that he thinks it's a big pharma con job. Samsa is right, Beatsong.

OK, thanks - I did miss that. I can see how this:

I leave this topic with one thought. For all of Mr.Samsa's bluster, it's very appropriate to note that these psychoactive drugs dispensed to treat this disorder don't do a fucking thing to cure it. Not a fucking thing. The only way is to keep dispensing them.

Now, tell us who this model serves.

could be taken that way.

I note however that it comes AFTER Mr Samsa makes his accusation of the conspiracy theory, and after Metatron had already made his perfectly clear statement about what he saw as the primary motivation for drugging children. So it seems more like an added afterthought - since Samsa had brought up the question of Big Pharma conspiracy, he's basically saying "well, if the shoe fits" - than a statement of his main position on it.

But at least I can see SOME context now for Samsa's "drugging children to make money" thing at the beginning of this thread. It's not as clear cut as I'd thought.

It might help if you take into account the fact that that thread isn't the first time I've spoken to Metatron. I know him, I've spoken to him multiple times on this topic, I know his position.

Notice how he didn't accuse me of misrepresentation over the idea that big pharma are drugging "normal" kids to make a profit? He only brought up misrepresentation when I compared it to the "aliens" theory. That's why this whole "debate" is a huge waste of time, you're debating a point that even metatron wouldn't agree with.

[Robert_S]

He was banned for being a disruptive troll. Which he was. (although, I disagree with permabans).

One man's "disruptive troll" is another man's freedom fighter and staunch advocate.

That's the whole point. I was banned because I wouldn't kowtow and suck Mod cock and surrender to the conventional wisdom and I refused to compromise or abandon my principals or my arguments in the face of all manner of nasty, ugly personal invective (from you among others) that went entirely unpunished but not unreported.

Quite simply I was banned because I am more intelligent, more articulate, better educated and a much, much better debator than anyone over there except maybe THWOTH.

And those fuckwits just couldn't stand it and started frothing at the mouth when they couldn't get me to admit defeat, so they had to manufacture an "offense" and violate absolutely every moral and ethical principle ever espoused by the members there in order to try to justify banning me.

Hypocritical pinheaded fuckwits, one and all, and they still are...and will always be. This thread is proof of it.

It ain't your principles or stance that gets you in trouble. It's your steady stream of gratuitous douchebitchery.

You're very like A+ers in that regard.

[Hermit]

...if Seth's points are so weak why not destroy them in open debate.

Been there, done that. Unfortunately Seth doesn't do debate. He just talks at you. About himself. Even when he appears to say something about the Second Amendment, gun control, abortion, lolbertardianism, or whatever hobby horse he fancies riding at the time, it's always about himself.

[Hermit]

Quite simply I was banned because I am more intelligent, more articulate, better educated and a much, much better debator than anyone over there except maybe THWOTH.

Dun dun dun dunnnnnnn

[Seth]

Quite simply I was banned because I am more intelligent, more articulate, better educated and a much, much better debator than anyone over there except maybe THWOTH.

Dun dun dun dunnnnnnn

Problem is, YOU are the one suffering from Dunning-Kruger, not me. But then again I allow for your inflated ego because of your handicap, so I don't hold it against you. So many idiots, so little time....*sigh*

[Seth]

...if Seth's points are so weak why not destroy them in open debate.

Been there, done that. Unfortunately Seth doesn't do debate. He just talks at you.

Yes, I tried for years to get through the impenetrable stupidity and mindless worship of Atheism and Marxism by talking at you dunces, but it turned out to be impossible to find the tiny crevice you call a mind even with a microscope, and if I managed to get a straw in the crack, you dunces slammed it shut the moment any light of truth began to penetrate the Stygian hell you call your intellects.

About himself. Even when he appears to say something about the Second Amendment, gun control, abortion, lolbertardianism, or whatever hobby horse he fancies riding at the time, it's always about himself.

Well, it can't be about you because there's absolutely nothing whatever to say in favor of you, so it's got to be about somebody else, so why not me?

[Seth]

It ain't your principles or stance that gets you in trouble. It's your steady stream of gratuitous douchebitchery.

If they deserved better, they would get better. If they even showed a pretense of being objective, rational and logical about anything they disagree with I was happy to chat most politely, but the religious, hidebound close-minded nature of RatSkep obviates any possibility of rational discussion about anything. It's not a lifeboat for the rational mind, it's a tramp freighter filled with derelicts, alcoholics and vermin that needs a torpedo.

[Hermit]

Quite simply I was banned because I am more intelligent, more articulate, better educated and a much, much better debator than anyone over there except maybe THWOTH.

Dun dun dun dunnnnnnn

Problem is, YOU are the one suffering from Dunning-Kruger, not me. But then again I allow for your inflated ego because of your handicap, so I don't hold it against you. So many idiots, so little time....*sigh*

I looked up "Seth" in the dictionary. The definition is "fact-free zone". Looks about right to me. You see, unlike you, I never described myself as "more intelligent, more articulate, better educated and a much, much better debator(sic) than anyone" or anything even approaching your overinflated opinion of yourself.