Cliven Bundy

[piscator]

I'll tell you what's even better than cow tracks for retaining rainfall, and that's native grasses and plants. If the cows didn't eat it first, the grasses could grow and entrain even more rain.

And from what I understand, the cops didn't show up until the Bundys started waving guns around, and the "BLM sniper" bullshit is all a lie.

Now Cliven's shot his mouth off once too often and most of his public supporters are distancing themselves from him just as fast as they can.

[rainbow]

Cliven Bundy is honest, he says what he thinks. And what he thinks is not far from the factual truth.

If the factual truth is a pile of doggie-do, then you may be correct.

[pErvinalia]

I love how Tyrannical only pops in now to support racists. Well done, T.

[Seth]

I'll tell you what's even better than cow tracks for retaining rainfall, and that's native grasses and plants. If the cows didn't eat it first, the grasses could grow and entrain even more rain.

Well, that's the point, the grass does grow because it's given the chance to establish, and once established it continues to grow in an environmentally proper manner called "renewable resource." Properly managed, grazing enhances the growth of grasses because they grok being cropped and grow better when grazed regularly, something someone who wasn't an utter ignoramus about range management would know.

And from what I understand, the cops didn't show up until the Bundys started waving guns around, and the "BLM sniper" bullshit is all a lie.

You understand wrong.

Now Cliven's shot his mouth off once too often and most of his public supporters are distancing themselves from him just as fast as they can.

True enough. Live by rhetoric, die by rhetoric. Some ignorant people just don't know when to STFU. (Nudge, nudge, wink, wink...)

[pErvinalia]

I'll tell you what's even better than cow tracks for retaining rainfall, and that's native grasses and plants. If the cows didn't eat it first, the grasses could grow and entrain even more rain.

Well, that's the point, the grass does grow because it's given the chance to establish, and once established it continues to grow in an environmentally proper manner called "renewable resource." Properly managed, grazing enhances the growth of grasses because they grok being cropped and grow better when grazed regularly, something someone who wasn't an utter ignoramus about range management would know.

Umm, grasses grow just fine without grazing.

Your soils are probably different to ours, but we have very thin fragile soils (as a general case) here in Australia. In our case, grazing by cloiven ( ) hoofed animals damages the top soil layer and will reduce grass growth over the long term.

And from what I understand, the cops didn't show up until the Bundys started waving guns around, and the "BLM sniper" bullshit is all a lie.

You understand wrong.

Where's your proof?

[Seth]

I'll tell you what's even better than cow tracks for retaining rainfall, and that's native grasses and plants. If the cows didn't eat it first, the grasses could grow and entrain even more rain.

Well, that's the point, the grass does grow because it's given the chance to establish, and once established it continues to grow in an environmentally proper manner called "renewable resource." Properly managed, grazing enhances the growth of grasses because they grok being cropped and grow better when grazed regularly, something someone who wasn't an utter ignoramus about range management would know.

Umm, grasses grow just fine without grazing.

Actually, they don't. Well, they do, but certain types, in particular the sort of range grass found in Nevada, grows much better if it's grazed on a regular basis. It evolved that way when there were lots of grazing animals. When it's not grazed, it becomes decadent and tends to clump and die out. Regular grazing is good for it, but the height to which it's browsed is important. One of the reasons for the cattle/sheep wars was the fact that sheep graze differently than cattle do. Sheep crop the stems practically down to bare ground whereas cows graze mostly on the succulent tips, and this makes a tremendous difference in the health of the grass. This characteristic varies from species to species of grass.

Your soils are probably different to ours, but we have very thin fragile soils (as a general case) here in Australia. In our case, grazing by cloiven ( ) hoofed animals damages the top soil layer and will reduce grass growth over the long term.

So ecozealots claim, but we've been discovering that they don't know what they are talking about and have been pandering ecopropaganda here in their campaign to drive ranchers off public lands, regardless of what it does to the ecosystem.

And from what I understand, the cops didn't show up until the Bundys started waving guns around, and the "BLM sniper" bullshit is all a lie.

You understand wrong.

Where's your proof?[/quote]

Somewhere on the Web.

[JimC]

To be fair to Seth, US grasslands did evolve with grazing from bison, similar to cattle, unlike our kangaroo situation...

[pErvinalia]

I'll tell you what's even better than cow tracks for retaining rainfall, and that's native grasses and plants. If the cows didn't eat it first, the grasses could grow and entrain even more rain.

Well, that's the point, the grass does grow because it's given the chance to establish, and once established it continues to grow in an environmentally proper manner called "renewable resource." Properly managed, grazing enhances the growth of grasses because they grok being cropped and grow better when grazed regularly, something someone who wasn't an utter ignoramus about range management would know.

Umm, grasses grow just fine without grazing.

Actually, they don't. Well, they do, but certain types, in particular the sort of range grass found in Nevada, grows much better if it's grazed on a regular basis. It evolved that way when there were lots of grazing animals. When it's not grazed, it becomes decadent and tends to clump and die out. Regular grazing is good for it, but the height to which it's browsed is important. One of the reasons for the cattle/sheep wars was the fact that sheep graze differently than cattle do. Sheep crop the stems practically down to bare ground whereas cows graze mostly on the succulent tips, and this makes a tremendous difference in the health of the grass. This characteristic varies from species to species of grass.

Yeah, the Kaikuya (spelling) pastures around here grow crazy and thick and smothering if they don't get grazed enough. Although, it's not a native.

Your soils are probably different to ours, but we have very thin fragile soils (as a general case) here in Australia. In our case, grazing by cloiven ( ) hoofed animals damages the top soil layer and will reduce grass growth over the long term.

So ecozealots claim, but we've been discovering that they don't know what they are talking about and have been pandering ecopropaganda here in their campaign to drive ranchers off public lands, regardless of what it does to the ecosystem.

Well it is definitely the case here. The Americas are a newer landmass than Australia. Australia has the oldest soils in the world, so they tend to be thin, fragile structured, and nutrient deficient. But there would be analogous systems in the US where there hasn't been any volcanic or massive sedimentary action for a very long time, I'd imagine. I obviously don't know if Nevada is one of those. Is Nevada where those old "monument" rocks are? I would imagine that environment is similar to a lot of Australian soils.

And from what I understand, the cops didn't show up until the Bundys started waving guns around, and the "BLM sniper" bullshit is all a lie.

You understand wrong.

Where's your proof?

Somewhere on the Web.

So convincing.

[pErvinalia]

To be fair to Seth, US grasslands did evolve with grazing from bison, similar to cattle, unlike our kangaroo situation...

Yeah, true. IF bison etc were in this particular area.

[Seth]

Well it is definitely the case here. The Americas are a newer landmass than Australia. Australia has the oldest soils in the world, so they tend to be thin, fragile structured, and nutrient deficient. But there would be analogous systems in the US where there hasn't been any volcanic or massive sedimentary action for a very long time, I'd imagine. I obviously don't know if Nevada is one of those. Is Nevada where those old "monument" rocks are? I would imagine that environment is similar to a lot of Australian soils.

That would be Arizona...Monument Valley, which is an Indian reservation. Used to be you could drive the dirt trails around the valley as you liked, then you had to hire a native guide to go with you to "protect sacred places" (Windtalker code for "I gotta make a living so pay me 20 bucks to drive around with you and tell you stories", and now they have a resort built at the road into the valley at the most famous picture spot (you know the one...the John Wayne/Howard Hawks one...), but they built it right on the crest of a hill with the ticket gate below the crest so you can't see the classic view of the valley for free anymore, you have to pay to park then go through their cheap-shit Chinese knock-off of genuine Navajo articles to get to the viewing deck to see the valley. They've shut off any other public roads that get you to the view to funnel people through their money machine.

Not that I'm complaining, it's their fucking valley and they can blow the damned things up for gravel for all I care. I actually laud their entrepreneurship. It's about time they quit sucking at the BIA tit and made a future for themselves.

On another note, on the way back from a gun show last year I decided to take the back roads (and I mean way back roads...created by horses and wagons and not much maintained since then...) through the Navajo/Hopi rez, just to see what all the complaining was about. Guess what!

The only decrepit hogans I saw were abandoned and right next to them was a brand-new modular home with electricity and in the driveway of every single one of them I saw was a brand new car or pickup truck...mostly pickups.

I understand there are some old folks living in a traditional manner in mud huts without water, sewer or electricity, but evidently they choose to live that way, way off of the roads in the back country of the rez.

Which doesn't mean they don't have lots of problems, particularly with alcohol and domestic violence. Rapes are unremarkably common on the rez from what one resident I gave a ride to told me. Child abuse is pretty common too.

Things are looking up for rez residents since the gambling gold rush...

Bought a lovely Hopi plate at a studio that sells local artists work on the Hopi rez. Nice. I got the provenance for it too and a biography and family tree of the artist. I did so to leave some money on the rez in return for the actually very lovely back-road drive that I wouldn't mind doing again sometime. It's a very stark beauty.

So convincing.

I'm not your homework monkey.

[pErvinalia]

Well I've only ever seen that one dubious image that was posted earlier. You claim there is more evidence. If you want to be believed then show it. I don't care about this issue enough to go and waste time google it. Show me the money, or blow it out your arse!

[piscator]

I doesn't take a goddamn Cambridge man to figure out that if you want the grass to grow, you move the cows off the pasture.

[Seth]

I doesn't take a goddamn Cambridge man to figure out that if you want the grass to grow, you move the cows off the pasture.

Evidently Cambridge men are fucking idiots when it comes to range management, and so are you.

Ever heard of a ranching practice called "rotation?"

Probably not.

It works like this: You move your cows around from place to place to mimic evolutionary grazing patterns which stimulate the grasses into better growth patterns by clipping them down and then moving on, giving them time to regrow before clipping them down again. Wash, rinse, repeat endlessly for millions of years.

It's the same reason that your lawn looks better when you mow it regularly.

You dunce.

[Seth]

Well I've only ever seen that one dubious image that was posted earlier. You claim there is more evidence. If you want to be believed then show it. I don't care about this issue enough to go and waste time google it. Show me the money, or blow it out your arse!

What leads you to the idiotic belief that I care whether you believe me or not?

[pErvinalia]

No one believes you, Seth.