Scottish Islands will demand their own independence

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mistermack
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Re: Scottish Islands will demand their own independence

Post by mistermack » Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:36 pm

ronmcd wrote:
mistermack wrote: I'll try to make it simpler, in the future.
It doesn't get any simpler - the islands are *getting* more control over local issues, and you claimed they will now demand independence, "a dead cert". Right.

This self same tactic to exploit the islands has been used by many opposed to independence in the past. And those who live there realise it, even if some here don't.
The thing is though, that every single argument that you've made for Scotland going ''independent'' also applies to the Islands going independent from Scotland.

So you can scoff and say that it will never happen, but your own arguments contradict that. It should happen, it's the best thing for them. According to your own position.
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Re: Scottish Islands will demand their own independence

Post by ronmcd » Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:31 pm

mistermack wrote: The thing is though, that every single argument that you've made for Scotland going ''independent'' also applies to the Islands going independent from Scotland.
I'm not sure every single argument I have used for Scottish independence would apply to the islands, some would apply perfectly well but some would likely be different, but I absolutely agree that the principle applies as much to them as to Scotland. 100%. No argument. It's self determination, we should all be entitled to it. And we are all entitled to it.
mistermack wrote:So you can scoff and say that it will never happen, but your own arguments contradict that. It should happen, it's the best thing for them. According to your own position.
No, my own arguments dont contradict it. The islands are perfectly at liberty to propose independence from Scotland, win a mandate to hold a referendum, and then decide to leave. 100%. But the arguments for independence for Scotland from UK are different from the islands from Scotland (or UK). I'm not saying the two sets of arguments are stronger or weaker than each other, just that they are different.

The attempt to take the set of arguments that do currently apply to Scotland & UK and apply them to different theoretical independence scenario, is shit stirring. It's the same as me suggesting that being opposed to Scottish independence means someone must also be logically opposed to any independence movement in any country ever, or in favour of the largest possible size of political state, a world government, etc. It's silly.

There IS an optimal size for a political state. And the only people who can decide that optimal size are the people who live there. Trying to make generalisations about independence or size of state based on one example is impossible, and, as I say, shit stirring.



Good try though.

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Re: Scottish Islands will demand their own independence

Post by mistermack » Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:10 pm

It's not about optimal size, though, is it?
It's about historical.
Some ancient king managed to rule a patch of land, and five hundred years later, people think that they are somehow different, because they come from that patch. It's fuck all to do with optimal size.

Why the hell would anybody want Wales to be a country, if it wasn't for an ancient border?
It's just a hang-over instinct from our territorial ape ancestors. We identify with a territory, because our genes tell us to do exactly that. Sometimes, it's a religion that we identify with, but it's usually a patch of dirt.

It's so strong, the Jews kept it going for 2,000 years, without even living there.

Optimal size bollocks.
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Re: Scottish Islands will demand their own independence

Post by ronmcd » Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:26 pm

Yes, optimal size, not in some absolute sense but just in terms of what the people who live there decide they want the optimal size to be. And you are right to some degree, that means the people who live there must have some reason, in this case it's a combination of historical (Scotland is a country currently in a political union, and the people who live in Scotland believe it to be so) and practical (Scotland has a parliament and so can vote for independence, which couldn't have happened pre 1999).

I personally don't know if the Welsh people would vote in sufficient numbers for independence, even if they had the opportunity, because I don't know if enough people there believe Wales has a diverse enough or sustainable independent economy. I've no idea if it does, I don't know much about Wales tbh. The argument in the Scottish islands would be different, they would have more than enough money from natural resources, but the services provided on the mainland and small size might make many conclude they were better remaining part of Scotland while benefitting from a cut of the oil revenues as presently. But again, only they would know if it was doable or not, or desirable. For Scotland, the argument is different, Scotland's economy is large enough, diverse enough, and has everything it needs to succeed, the question now is whether people want to be independent.

Optimal size, as in the size the people decide they want. Not a hard and fast rule.

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Re: Scottish Islands will demand their own independence

Post by mistermack » Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:41 pm

The Islands are easily big enough. Using Scot Nat arguments, the mainland would of course welcome the Islanders using their facilities, and paying for them. It would be in both parties interests, as that wee lassie keeps saying.
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Re: Scottish Islands will demand their own independence

Post by ronmcd » Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:19 pm

mistermack wrote:The Islands are easily big enough. Using Scot Nat arguments, the mainland would of course welcome the Islanders using their facilities, and paying for them. It would be in both parties interests, as that wee lassie keeps saying.
Yes. If the islands were to become independent then of course Scotland would be the best of neighbours, and there would be cooperation and doubtless continued integration of some services.

It's only those who want to scare voters who would suggest otherwise.

Um ....

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Re: Scottish Islands will demand their own independence

Post by mistermack » Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:18 pm

Of course, it's easy for you to say that they would be allowed a vote on independence, if Scotland voted to leave the UK.
You have no say either way. I don't believe that they would get a vote, and I'm sure that Salmond would find some weasel form of words to justify refusing.
That's why I say they should be demanding it loudly now, while the campaign is on. It's their only chance.
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Re: Scottish Islands will demand their own independence

Post by ronmcd » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:02 pm

mistermack wrote:Of course, it's easy for you to say that they would be allowed a vote on independence, if Scotland voted to leave the UK.
You have no say either way. I don't believe that they would get a vote, and I'm sure that Salmond would find some weasel form of words to justify refusing.
Well, that's a fascinating assertion, I'd be fascinated to see any evidence that a Scottish government - remember independence does not mean a Salmond dictatorship or permanent administration - would try and deny a vote should some part of Scotland wish independence.

Still, much easier than logic.
mistermack wrote:That's why I say they should be demanding it loudly now, while the campaign is on. It's their only chance.
You do realise there isn't any demand for their independence? Apart from unionist politicians trying to make mischief over Scottish independence? (and you, of course)

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Re: Scottish Islands will demand their own independence

Post by mistermack » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:21 pm

It's ridiculous to say that there should be some sort of evidence. The Nats aren't going to stand up and say it now.
But they certainly haven't said that they WOULD allow an independence vote by the Islands.
If they do that, I'll believe you.

As far as demand goes, I don't believe there has been any canvassing of opinion.
It would be fairly natural for people to wait and see anyway. If Scotland votes no, that's the end of it.

The movement for independence in Scotland grew from very small roots. The same can happen in the Islands. It was devolution that sparked the rise of demand in Scotland.
The same could happen again.
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Re: Scottish Islands will demand their own independence

Post by ronmcd » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:30 pm

mistermack wrote:It's ridiculous to say that there should be some sort of evidence. The Nats aren't going to stand up and say it now.
But they certainly haven't said that they WOULD allow an independence vote by the Islands.
If they do that, I'll believe you.
Angus Brendan MacNeil MP said exactly that a year or so ago on the Daily Politics when Andrew Neil asked the same nonsense question.
mistermack wrote:As far as demand goes, I don't believe there has been any canvassing of opinion.
It would be fairly natural for people to wait and see anyway. If Scotland votes no, that's the end of it.
Wait, what?

You mean you are only interested in independence if Scotland votes for independence, and if we don't there wouldn't be any demand for it?

Glad you've admitted it :funny:

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Re: Scottish Islands will demand their own independence

Post by mistermack » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:37 pm

ronmcd wrote: Angus Brendan MacNeil MP said exactly that a year or so ago on the Daily Politics when Andrew Neil asked the same nonsense question.
So what?
ronmcd wrote: Wait, what?

You mean you are only interested in independence if Scotland votes for independence, and if we don't there wouldn't be any demand for it?

Glad you've admitted it :funny:
I have no idea what you are trying to say there. Have another go.
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Re: Scottish Islands will demand their own independence

Post by ronmcd » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:37 pm

mistermack wrote:
ronmcd wrote: Angus Brendan MacNeil MP said exactly that a year or so ago on the Daily Politics when Andrew Neil asked the same nonsense question.
So what?
ronmcd wrote: Wait, what?

You mean you are only interested in independence if Scotland votes for independence, and if we don't there wouldn't be any demand for it?

Glad you've admitted it :funny:
I have no idea what you are trying to say there. Have another go.
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