Runaway pulsar has astronomers scratching their heads

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Re: Runaway pulsar has astronomers scratching their heads

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:27 pm

Hermit wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Huh? How have I missed that? I haven't said a single thing about "facts". Where in anything have I said have I denied that?? :think: And what the fuck does the speed of light or the speed of transfer have to do with whether something is information or not? Why the hell do you keep repeating this inanity?
Learn to read. Sleep on it. Try again in the morning.
In other words, you can't back up your specious bollocks. You've got a magnificent track record of doing that. If you can't be bothered backing up your pronouncements, then why make them in the first place?

And besides, it's a bogus dichotomy anyway. Fucking wikipedia... really? I can play dictionary games too, and they don't support that dichotomy.
in·for·ma·tion
noun \ˌin-fər-ˈmā-shən\

: knowledge that you get about someone or something : facts or details about a subject
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/information
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Re: Runaway pulsar has astronomers scratching their heads

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:32 pm

MiM wrote:
mistermack wrote:
MiM wrote: One of the most basic assumptions in quantum theory, and underlying all of this discussion, is exactly that quantum states does not exist until they are read. This is what Bell's theorem (and the experimental proof thereof) proves. So in the quantum world that information does not exist (aka has not travelled) if it cannot be read. Actually it dose not exist unless it is read.
Wikipedia wrote: The question becomes, "How can one account for something that was at one point indefinite with regard to its spin (or whatever is in this case the subject of investigation) suddenly becoming definite in that regard even though no physical interaction with the second object occurred, and, if the two objects are sufficiently far separated, could not even have had the time needed for such an interaction to proceed from the first to the second object?"[29] The latter question involves the issue of locality, i.e., whether for a change to occur in something the agent of change has to be in physical contact (at least via some intermediary such as a field force) with the thing that changes. Study of entanglement brings into sharp focus the dilemma between locality and the completeness or lack of completeness of quantum mechanics.
As I see it, that's the whole point of entangled particles. As you pointed out, the quantum state of the second particle doesn't exist until it's read. BUT, it can be read from a million light years away, by reading it's pair. You can fix it's quantum state instantly, from a million light years away.
Yes I can read it's quantum state from afar, but then I can do the same with a pair of socks. I hide one black sock in a drawer, and send its pair to the moon. The moment I open the drawer, I will know that the sock on the moon is also black. That is not information moving anywhere.
If you have one white and one black sock and randomly send one of them to the moon, then that is information gained. Particularly so if someone else was on the moon and knew the starting constraints.
The collapse of the quantum state is another thing, and as you say, an issue of locality. And locality is what seems to break down in these interactions, that much is clear. But as you said yourself? information is a concept. The particle on the moon doesn't care or know about concepts. It does not know that it's partner on earth has been measured and their common wave function has broken down. Neither does anyone else on the moon (you cannot determine it by measurement), so where is the transfer of information, especially given that we don't find quantum states existing unless we measure them? Yes, we have it on earth (where we do the measurement on the other particle, but does it really exist on the moon)?
When the particle on the moon is measured after the collapse of the wave function, it will impart information about the particle on the earth, won't it? I thought that was what was tested and proven with those entanglement experiments.
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Re: Runaway pulsar has astronomers scratching their heads

Post by MiM » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:19 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
MiM wrote:
mistermack wrote:
MiM wrote: One of the most basic assumptions in quantum theory, and underlying all of this discussion, is exactly that quantum states does not exist until they are read. This is what Bell's theorem (and the experimental proof thereof) proves. So in the quantum world that information does not exist (aka has not travelled) if it cannot be read. Actually it dose not exist unless it is read.
Wikipedia wrote: The question becomes, "How can one account for something that was at one point indefinite with regard to its spin (or whatever is in this case the subject of investigation) suddenly becoming definite in that regard even though no physical interaction with the second object occurred, and, if the two objects are sufficiently far separated, could not even have had the time needed for such an interaction to proceed from the first to the second object?"[29] The latter question involves the issue of locality, i.e., whether for a change to occur in something the agent of change has to be in physical contact (at least via some intermediary such as a field force) with the thing that changes. Study of entanglement brings into sharp focus the dilemma between locality and the completeness or lack of completeness of quantum mechanics.
As I see it, that's the whole point of entangled particles. As you pointed out, the quantum state of the second particle doesn't exist until it's read. BUT, it can be read from a million light years away, by reading it's pair. You can fix it's quantum state instantly, from a million light years away.
Yes I can read it's quantum state from afar, but then I can do the same with a pair of socks. I hide one black sock in a drawer, and send its pair to the moon. The moment I open the drawer, I will know that the sock on the moon is also black. That is not information moving anywhere.
If you have one white and one black sock and randomly send one of them to the moon, then that is information gained. Particularly so if someone else was on the moon and knew the starting constraints.
The collapse of the quantum state is another thing, and as you say, an issue of locality. And locality is what seems to break down in these interactions, that much is clear. But as you said yourself? information is a concept. The particle on the moon doesn't care or know about concepts. It does not know that it's partner on earth has been measured and their common wave function has broken down. Neither does anyone else on the moon (you cannot determine it by measurement), so where is the transfer of information, especially given that we don't find quantum states existing unless we measure them? Yes, we have it on earth (where we do the measurement on the other particle, but does it really exist on the moon)?
When the particle on the moon is measured after the collapse of the wave function, it will impart information about the particle on the earth, won't it? I thought that was what was tested and proven with those entanglement experiments.
OK, I have a white and a black sock and randomly send one to the moon, and put the other one in a box. On the moon they know, that this is what I have done. So when the white sock arrives to the moon, they will know that I have the black sock. But that information has been sent with rocket speed. Now you tell me what information will I send to the moon at the instant I open my drawer and find the black sock?

When they measure the particle on the moon, they cannot know if I have measured my particle or not, unless that information is sent through some other means.
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Re: Runaway pulsar has astronomers scratching their heads

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:29 pm

Addressing your second point first, the measurements could be done at predetermined times. As long as the two had synchronised clocks and were in the same inertial frame (or in this case, factored the different inertial frame in), then it is possible. But essentially, it doesn't matter how it was done. It could have been synchronised by chance. The fact is, that if one observation follows the other, then information has been gained.

The white sock black sock thing:
You won't send any information to the moon when you find the black sock. The moon already knows what sock you have. You, however, will gain information about the sock on the moon. This whole concept of 'information being a carrying mechanism' is a bogus definition in a non-rigorous public "encyclopaedia". Information is simply knowledge gained. It's an abstract concept. You don't have to envisage anything travelling between the two. The concept is maintained when knowledge is gained via some mechanism.
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Re: Runaway pulsar has astronomers scratching their heads

Post by mistermack » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:54 pm

If looking at your Earth sock sets it spinning clockwise, and simultaneously sets the Moon sock spinning anti-clockwise, I would say that that's much more than just deducing the colour by looking.

You can't verify that it's happened because looking at the moon sock would have set it spinning anyway. So, on the moon, you know nothing new about the sock. But you can verify that it DID happen later, at ordinary speeds.

Setting the sock spinning instantly still has promise, even if it tells you nothing at present.
It's not like the moon sock didn't spin till you looked at it. It did.
It might well be that nothing can ever be found to exploit that fact. Or not.
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Re: Runaway pulsar has astronomers scratching their heads

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:05 pm

If you looked at the moon particle after the earth particle had been observed, the state of the moon particle would already be set. Well, at least that's what I think entanglement means. So looking at the moon particle wouldn't change anything about the quantum state of the two pairs. But man, that just opens up more questions about "observation". QM really makes me Image . Oh sorry, [Hermit] quantum mechanics really makes me Image [/Hermit].
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Re: Runaway pulsar has astronomers scratching their heads

Post by JimC » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:57 am

Imagine having 1 million pairs of electron. One makes sure that each pair is entangled. then takes one member of each pair to Alpha Centauri, via sub-light travel.

One then checks the spin of each electron on Earth (remember, this cannot be known in advance...)

At exactly the same time, the spin of each electron on Alpa Centauri is now fixed; if measured, each would be identical to its Earth partner.

The collapse of the wave function was simultaneous - this is Einstein's "spooky action at a distance"

But, the particular spin state of each electron is in effect a random number generator, producing a million long sequence of random 0 or 1.

Information is defined as a communication which can cause action; the possession, instant or otherwise, of a string of random binary digits is not communication...
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Re: Runaway pulsar has astronomers scratching their heads

Post by mistermack » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:34 pm

The thing is though, the state of knowledge of QM is in it's infancy.
It's ok to suppose that information can never be communicated via entangled particles, but it's not proven that it never can.

Nobody knows how the entangled pair influence each other at a distance. If you don't even know what's happening, you are certainly in no position to rule stuff in or out.

What you can say for sure, is that there is a mechanism for one particle to influence another by means other than a piece of information moving through space time from A to B.

The thing is, WE can't derive information from the second entangled particle. BUT, there IS information in it. It's spin is fixed. It wasn't, but now it is. There is information in the particle, but we can't as yet get it out.

So I'm still confident that information has passed from A to B, even though it can't be read by us.
You might think that it's a ridiculous distinction to draw, but I think it just disproves the principle that the speed of light can't be exceeded. It can be exceeded, by information, but we can't read it.

If c can be exceeded by information we can't read, there must be a chance that we can find something readable, that can pull the same trick.
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Re: Runaway pulsar has astronomers scratching their heads

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:43 am

mistermack wrote:The thing is though, the state of knowledge of QM is in it's infancy.
It's ok to suppose that information can never be communicated via entangled particles, but it's not proven that it never can.
The maths prove it! Both the maths of Quantum Physics and the maths of Relativity. These maths have been proven to a degree unprecedented in the history of proving things and they both say that nothing (neither matter, energy nor information) can travel faster than light! :tea:

You are arguing against incredibly rigorous, highly complex maths with a tabloid-level, layman's approximation! That is why you FAIL! (And, incidentally, why you annoy me so much and why I ought never, ever to read your posts! :banghead: ) If you want to argue against the maths, you need better maths not "Hey, guys, let's ignore the maths because my opinion is just as good as yours and I read something about this on Facebook, OK?"

Until you have a solution that fits ALL of the facts better than relativity and quantum physics, all you are doing is flinging dung. And, to do that, you need to understand the maths.

The maths predicted that the Higgs Boson would be found at roughly the energy levels that it was found at. The maths predicted the shift in observed position of stars close to the sun during an eclipse. The maths (in this case, specifically the maths of Quantum Electrodynamics) has predicted results to a greater level of accuracy than have ever been recorded experimentally by any other theory in physics!

If you want to claim that "it's not proven that it never can" and be taken seriously by anyone that has made even the most fleeting effort to understand the maths underlying the maths behind the claim that it can't, then you need to accompany that claim with maths that both show that it is possible AND account for the accuracy of the results predicted by the currently accepted theories. If you don't, you are no better than Ken Ham claiming that the dinosaur fossils are remnants of the great flood!



Feel free to claim that this post proves that I am drunk. That has a far greater probability of being close to reality than any claim you could possibly make about physics or mathematics.
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Re: Runaway pulsar has astronomers scratching their heads

Post by mistermack » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:40 am

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
mistermack wrote:The thing is though, the state of knowledge of QM is in it's infancy.
It's ok to suppose that information can never be communicated via entangled particles, but it's not proven that it never can.
The maths prove it! Both the maths of Quantum Physics and the maths of Relativity. These maths have been proven to a degree unprecedented in the history of proving things and they both say that nothing (neither matter, energy nor information) can travel faster than light! :tea:

You are arguing against incredibly rigorous, highly complex maths with a tabloid-level, layman's approximation! That is why you FAIL! (And, incidentally, why you annoy me so much and why I ought never, ever to read your posts! :banghead: ) If you want to argue against the maths, you need better maths not "Hey, guys, let's ignore the maths because my opinion is just as good as yours and I read something about this on Facebook, OK?"

Until you have a solution that fits ALL of the facts better than relativity and quantum physics, all you are doing is flinging dung. And, to do that, you need to understand the maths.

The maths predicted that the Higgs Boson would be found at roughly the energy levels that it was found at. The maths predicted the shift in observed position of stars close to the sun during an eclipse. The maths (in this case, specifically the maths of Quantum Electrodynamics) has predicted results to a greater level of accuracy than have ever been recorded experimentally by any other theory in physics!

If you want to claim that "it's not proven that it never can" and be taken seriously by anyone that has made even the most fleeting effort to understand the maths underlying the maths behind the claim that it can't, then you need to accompany that claim with maths that both show that it is possible AND account for the accuracy of the results predicted by the currently accepted theories. If you don't, you are no better than Ken Ham claiming that the dinosaur fossils are remnants of the great flood!



Feel free to claim that this post proves that I am drunk. That has a far greater probability of being close to reality than any claim you could possibly make about physics or mathematics.
You didn't read my previous posts.
You posted no link, other than your own opinion, that ''the maths'' has proved it.
And since you didn't read my previous posts properly, I'll help you. I'm not saying that the information that causes the second particle to fix it's spin has moved through the Universe from A to B, at a speed greater than the speed of light.
I'm SPECULATING ( which should be obvious, but which seems to upset you so much ) that there is a shortcut that allows this to happen, maybe via a parallel universe or unknown dimension.

But as you know so much, explain how the entangled twins affect each other instantly, while a million light years apart.
Let's hear YOUR explanation, mister-fuckin-know-it-all.
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Re: Runaway pulsar has astronomers scratching their heads

Post by JimC » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:05 pm

mistermack, the key to this is realising that "affect each other instantly" is not the same as "send information instantly". Information has a very specific meaning in maths; the details were worked out by Shannon a long time ago. It is this formal definition of information transfer which cannot take place at greater than light speed; given that the definition includes the idea that a piece of information must have the ability to effect a change in a system, then any practical use of quantum entanglement's "spooky action at a distance" is ruled out. Suddenly knowing a string of random numbers, and knowing that the same string of random numbers now exists back on Earth as well does not let the Galactic Patrol communicate faster than light...
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Re: Runaway pulsar has astronomers scratching their heads

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:30 pm

JimC wrote:mistermack, the key to this is realising that "affect each other instantly" is not the same as "send information instantly". Information has a very specific meaning in maths; the details were worked out by Shannon a long time ago. It is this formal definition of information transfer which cannot take place at greater than light speed; given that the definition includes the idea that a piece of information must have the ability to effect a change in a system, then any practical use of quantum entanglement's "spooky action at a distance" is ruled out. Suddenly knowing a string of random numbers, and knowing that the same string of random numbers now exists back on Earth as well does not let the Galactic Patrol communicate faster than light...
:this:

Exactly what I meant by "useful information" about 10 pages back.

Now would be a good point to admit defeat, MM, confess that you are out of your depth and retire from the conversation. Of course, that won't happen. Instead you will sieze upon some semantic point which (in your ignorance) you think adds weight to your case and will try and use it to pummel everyone else into agreeing with you. :yawn:
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Re: Runaway pulsar has astronomers scratching their heads

Post by mistermack » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:55 pm

Jim. I get what you're saying. I think we really are going round in a circle.

We all agree that the second particle is affected instantly, no matter how far away.
And that it's affected by our own action of measuring the first particle.

So my action on Earth can instantly affect an entangled particle a million light years away.
So you are saying that even though I've affected that particle, and fixed it's spin, there is NO new information in that particle. Not readable information. I've accepted that bit. But no new information at all.
This is from the main Entanglement page :
Wikipedia wrote: It thus appears that one particle of an entangled pair "knows" what measurement has been performed on the other, and with what outcome, even though there is no known means for such information to be communicated between the particles, which at the time of measurement may be separated by arbitrarily large distances.
It looks like someone should be volunteering to edit the wording of the page. XC could get it right. He knows everything.

When I said that the effect is happening faster than the speed of light, I made it clear that I wasn't proposing something could TRAVEL faster than light. But this HAPPENS faster than light.
The distinction is,

take the example I keep using. Two entangled particles a million light years apart.
I am with one of them, and I want to affect the other.
If I shine light at the second particle, it takes a million years to reach it.
If I measure the first one, it takes an instant to fix the spin of the other.

It's faster than light, in the sense that it's faster than light COULD HAVE reached the second particle.
It's not faster than light, in the sense of physical travel through space time from A to B quicker than c.

Also, when I made the comment that this stuff could bring up problems for relativity, it caused great explosions of wind, but it's not just me :
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... elativity/

As far as the subject being closed for discussion or speculation goes, perhaps it's worth reading the wiki page on superluminal communication.
Then look up Anton Zeilinger, if you are impressed by qualifications. And then explain why wiki says this :
Wikipedia wrote: Birgit Dopfer, a student of Anton Zeilinger's, has performed an experiment which seems to make possible superluminar communication through an unexpected collective behaviour of two beams of entangled photons, one of which passes through a double-slit, utilising the creation of a distance interference pattern as bit 0 and the lack of a distance interference pattern as bit 1 (or vice versa), without any other classical channel.[4][7] Since it is a collective and probabilistic phenomenon, no quantum information about the single particles is cloned and, accordingly, the no cloning theorem remains inviolate. Physicist John G. Cramer at the University of Washington is attempting to replicate Dopfer's experiment and demonstrate whether or not it can produce superluminal communication.[8][9][10][11]
So of course the subject is settled. Why are these people even bothering?
The poor things haven't had the benefit of XC's gob shite . Someone should tell them XC thinks they are wasting their time. Maybe if they asked nicely, XC could put them right. It's a shame for them to waste their valuable time, when a bit of vocal excrement from XC could save them time and embarrassment.
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Re: Runaway pulsar has astronomers scratching their heads

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:06 am

JimC wrote:mistermack, the key to this is realising that "affect each other instantly" is not the same as "send information instantly". Information has a very specific meaning in maths; the details were worked out by Shannon a long time ago. It is this formal definition of information transfer which cannot take place at greater than light speed; given that the definition includes the idea that a piece of information must have the ability to effect a change in a system, then any practical use of quantum entanglement's "spooky action at a distance" is ruled out. Suddenly knowing a string of random numbers, and knowing that the same string of random numbers now exists back on Earth as well does not let the Galactic Patrol communicate faster than light...
Someone who understands this sort of stuff needs to expand on how quantum computing uses quantum entanglement. Because it supposedly does use quantum entanglement, and the storage of information in qubits is clearly underpinning the computer's use of algorithms. So some change is occurring. Whether that change is occurring due to QE, I don't know. At some point I might have to read up on it.
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Re: Runaway pulsar has astronomers scratching their heads

Post by Jason » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:44 pm

QE in QM allows IT faster than LS. It's in ME and must be true.

So I'm guessing that quantum entanglement cannot ever be used to communicate data because there's no way to know the 'spin' of the particle until it is measured, and once it is measured it is set, so the Galactic Patrol would be receiving random gibberish - utterly useless and communicating nothing. If you could fix the 'spin' the way you want it could be used to transfer data from one system to another. Apparently they do this by indirect observation.. something something technical.. margin of error.. blah blah.. it requires observation of the entangled particle by the system making FTL transfer of data impossible since using entangled particles to monitor entangled particles just adds another dimension of stupid to the system per nested entangled pair.

QC uses QE not because it is FTL, but because a 'qubit' represents far more data than a regular old 'bit' which can only be 1 or 0 at any time.

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