Runaway pulsar has astronomers scratching their heads

[MiM]

If simultaneous measurements are taken a distance apart, it is actually impossible to say which affects which as both appear to occur before the other from its POV!

But that is only if you think locality exists and regard the particles to be separated by the speed of light, which is the basic assumption these experiments defy.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

If simultaneous measurements are taken a distance apart, it is actually impossible to say which affects which as both appear to occur before the other from its POV!

But that is only if you think locality exists and regard the particles to be separated by the speed of light, which is the basic assumption these experiments defy.

My biggest assumption was that simultaneity exists. You missed that one!

Actually, is QE not merely a special case of the general rule that taking ANY measurement instantly affects the entire universe?

The total angular momentum of the universe is zero, so measuring the spin of a particle immediately affects the probability functions of the spin of every other particle (albeit infinitesimally minutely.)

[MiM]

If simultaneous measurements are taken a distance apart, it is actually impossible to say which affects which as both appear to occur before the other from its POV!

But that is only if you think locality exists and regard the particles to be separated by the speed of light, which is the basic assumption these experiments defy.

My biggest assumption was that simultaneity exists. You missed that one!

Actually, I started on an answer down that path, but ditched it because I deemed that assumption to be masked by the assumption of locality.

Actually, is QE not merely a special case of the general rule that taking ANY measurement instantly affects the entire universe?

The total angular momentum of the universe is zero, so measuring the spin of a particle immediately affects the probability functions of the spin of every other particle (albeit infinitesimally minutely.)

Yes, I believe that is a standard interpretation of QE (Something like: "The universe can in theory be described as one gigantic wave function, and every single particle adds one term to that function"). But why would that be hard to grasp? The effect of the measurement very soon becomes infinitesimally small, so you can easily make a classical analogy. If I stand up from my chair, I will affect the momentum of the earth, which will effect the momentum of the sun...

[JimC]

Does the universe absolutely have to have zero total angular momentum, or is that just an assumption that makes the equations tidier?

[MiM]

Does the universe absolutely have to have zero total angular momentum, or is that just an assumption that makes the equations tidier?

Beats me. Is that assumption even used anywhere?

On the other hand I have never been able to comprehend how they explained away the particle/antiparticle symmetry either

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Does the universe absolutely have to have zero total angular momentum, or is that just an assumption that makes the equations tidier?

Beats me. Is that assumption even used anywhere?

On the other hand I have never been able to comprehend how they explained away the particle/antiparticle symmetry either

Something to do with symmetry breaking and CP-violation... I get lost around this point. But basically, particles of matter and their anti-matter partners do not behave exactly symmetrically and this has led to an imbalance in the relative amounts of each in the universe - even though there was once the same amount of each. Or some shit.

As for the zero-sum of angular momentum (and charge, and other quantum values), this comes from the theory that the universe spontaneously came into being from nothing. Nothing, by definition has zero-spin, zero-charge, etc. so anything evolved from it must also have zero total momentum, angular momentum, charge, etc.

[pErvinalia]

But there must be, as the properties of one particle determine the properties of the other, don't they?

Your problem is that you are thinking at the particles in a classical way. Classical thinking just leads to strangeness and error in the quantum world.

The way quantum people like to "explain" this, is by thinking of the entangled particles as parts of one single wave function. This wave function is defined in all space. Once you make a measurement on one of the particles the wave function immediately collapses into two separate wave functions for the particles. This happens everywhere in space, not only at the "location" of the particles. But nothing moves anywhere. No I don't claim to understand this myself, our brains are just not warped to understand this kind of stuff.

Think of it like this. The two particles are two balls - one white, one black - in a bag. You and a friend both take a ball without looking and put it in your pocket. Now, until one of you looks at their ball, it has a 50% chance of being black (or white) but when you look at your ball, you immediately know the colour of your friend's. So, tell me how this enables instantaneous communication?

Well the way I understood it was that when person A looks at his ball that determines the colour of the other ball. So information has to have been transmitted. Remember, the other ball could be either black or white up until the point person A looks at his ball and the wave function collapses.

[pErvinalia]

But there must be, as the properties of one particle determine the properties of the other, don't they?

Your problem is that you are thinking at the particles in a classical way. Classical thinking just leads to strangeness and error in the quantum world.

The way quantum people like to "explain" this, is by thinking of the entangled particles as parts of one single wave function. This wave function is defined in all space. Once you make a measurement on one of the particles the wave function immediately collapses into two separate wave functions for the particles. This happens everywhere in space, not only at the "location" of the particles. But nothing moves anywhere. No I don't claim to understand this myself, our brains are just not warped to understand this kind of stuff.

Think of it like this. The two particles are two balls - one white, one black - in a bag. You and a friend both take a ball without looking and put it in your pocket. Now, until one of you looks at their ball, it has a 50% chance of being black (or white) but when you look at your ball, you immediately know the colour of your friend's. So, tell me how this enables instantaneous communication?

The entangled particle case is directly analogous.

Umm, yes as far as "no-communication" that analogy might be useful, but the big difference is that the balls in your pockets have their colours all the time, even before you look at them. But the entangled particles don't have a well defined spin, until we measure one of them (as shown by experimental validation of Bell's theorem, or a lot longer and more demanding Bell's).

The reason we still cannot transfer information is (asfaiu) that by looking at only our own measurement, we cannot conclude if the other measurement has taken place or not.

But this is what I addressed with you above. There's a difference between transferring coordinated information, and the transference of quantum state information. The original tangent that lead to this was related to the latter.

[pErvinalia]

But the entangled particles don't have a well defined spin, until we measure one of them (as shown by experimental validation of Bell's theorem, or a lot longer and more demanding Bell's).

The reason we still cannot transfer information is (asfaiu) that by looking at only our own measurement, we cannot conclude if the other measurement has taken place or not.

The thing is though, is there any evidence that the spin of the second particle is affected instantaneously, upon measurement of the other?
If they are a million light years apart, will the second particle be affected immediately, or a million years later? If it's because of a change to a field, you would expect that change to take at least a million years to show itself at a point a million light years away.

That's apart from the difficulty of detecting the change.

Well I understood that this had been tested and experimentally proven. All one has to have is a synchronised clock and be moving in the same inertial frame of reference as the other observer and particle.

[pErvinalia]

But the entangled particles don't have a well defined spin, until we measure one of them (as shown by experimental validation of Bell's theorem, or a lot longer and more demanding Bell's).

The reason we still cannot transfer information is (asfaiu) that by looking at only our own measurement, we cannot conclude if the other measurement has taken place or not.

The thing is though, is there any evidence that the spin of the second particle is affected instantaneously, upon measurement of the other?
If they are a million light years apart, will the second particle be affected immediately, or a million years later? If it's because of a change to a field, you would expect that change to take at least a million years to show itself at a point a million light years away.

That's apart from the difficulty of detecting the change.

The effect is immediate, so you can measure the other particle immediately after the first measurement, and then compare the results later, when the information about the first measurement arrives by light signal, to conclude that the effect is there. If I remember correctly this has been done over 10 km or so, more than enough to measure the time difference.

So if you know this has been done, why are you disagreeing with my initial assertion?

[laklak]

It's all bollocks. The universe is God's Rectum and we're measly flecks of semi-conscious shit floating around in a sea of Holy Diarrhea. I discovered this years ago but Mainstream Science refuses to see the TRUTH!

[JimC]

Well that wrecked 'em...

[MiM]

But the entangled particles don't have a well defined spin, until we measure one of them (as shown by experimental validation of Bell's theorem, or a lot longer and more demanding Bell's).

The reason we still cannot transfer information is (asfaiu) that by looking at only our own measurement, we cannot conclude if the other measurement has taken place or not.

The thing is though, is there any evidence that the spin of the second particle is affected instantaneously, upon measurement of the other?
If they are a million light years apart, will the second particle be affected immediately, or a million years later? If it's because of a change to a field, you would expect that change to take at least a million years to show itself at a point a million light years away.

That's apart from the difficulty of detecting the change.

The effect is immediate, so you can measure the other particle immediately after the first measurement, and then compare the results later, when the information about the first measurement arrives by light signal, to conclude that the effect is there. If I remember correctly this has been done over 10 km or so, more than enough to measure the time difference.

So if you know this has been done, why are you disagreeing with my initial assertion?

Because you are trying to explain the quantum world with purely classical concepts. That is not advisable, if you also want to stay sane.

[mistermack]

If simultaneous measurements are taken a distance apart, it is actually impossible to say which affects which as both appear to occur before the other from its POV!

But that is only if you think locality exists and regard the particles to be separated by the speed of light, which is the basic assumption these experiments defy.

It sounds very much like there is a component of space time that is common throughout the universe.
Maybe it's supplied by another universe.
I remember some speculation that the speed of light might be got around, by dumping information into a parallel universe, and having it come back out millions of light years away.
That seems remarkably similar to what's happening with the entangled particles.

As far as I can see, information IS being sent faster than the speed of light.
The fact that we can't read it doesn't change that. The principle is there, even if the practicalities prevent any use being made of it at present. If you can affect the spin of a particle instantly, at a distance of a million light years, what else can you do?

I thought that relativity theory would be disproved, if information could travel faster than light?

[JimC]

If simultaneous measurements are taken a distance apart, it is actually impossible to say which affects which as both appear to occur before the other from its POV!

But that is only if you think locality exists and regard the particles to be separated by the speed of light, which is the basic assumption these experiments defy.

It sounds very much like there is a component of space time that is common throughout the universe.
Maybe it's supplied by another universe.
I remember some speculation that the speed of light might be got around, by dumping information into a parallel universe, and having it come back out millions of light years away.
That seems remarkably similar to what's happening with the entangled particles.

As far as I can see, information IS being sent faster than the speed of light.
The fact that we can't read it doesn't change that. The principle is there, even if the practicalities prevent any use being made of it at present. If you can affect the spin of a particle instantly, at a distance of a million light years, what else can you do?

I thought that relativity theory would be disproved, if information could travel faster than light?

Information has a fairly technical meaning, but I think it comes down to whether a bit of information can potentially change something.

The entangled particle scenario does not allow this form of information to be transmitted.