Alan Turing given royal pardon.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

...about 50 years too late!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315

They've let him off being gay. How very nice of them.

In other news, the government plans to drop obscenity charges against Lady Godiva in 2045.

[Warren Dew]

Late is better than never.

I'd never realized he had a conviction, let along "chemical castration".

[JimC]

Late is better than never.

I'd never realized he had a conviction, let along "chemical castration".

Horrible as it was, it's a reminder to anyone feeling pessimistic about humans that the zeitgeist has moved on and up a pretty good pace, at least in a fair bit of the world...

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Late is better than never.

I'd never realized he had a conviction, let along "chemical castration".

Horrible as it was, it's a reminder to anyone feeling pessimistic about humans that the zeitgeist has moved on and up a pretty good pace, at least in a fair bit of the world...

But not in Russia, or Uganda, or Saudi Arabia, or pretty much anywhere in Africa or the "Arab world" for that matter. Actually, most of the world. Still a lot of intolerance and bigotry out there. Plenty right here in Englandshire too - just not officially anymore - which I suppose is something.

[JimC]

Late is better than never.

I'd never realized he had a conviction, let along "chemical castration".

Horrible as it was, it's a reminder to anyone feeling pessimistic about humans that the zeitgeist has moved on and up a pretty good pace, at least in a fair bit of the world...

But not in Russia, or Uganda, or Saudi Arabia, or pretty much anywhere in Africa or the "Arab world" for that matter. Actually, most of the world. Still a lot of intolerance and bigotry out there. Plenty right here in Englandshire too - just not officially anymore - which I suppose is something.

It really is something, since someone like Turing will not be hounded to death anymore in the civilised parts of the world. Remaining low-level intolerance from bigots will most likely decrease too - surveys of young people in Oz show steadily increasing total acceptance of gender preference; it's hardly an issue any more to them...

And cultures that do that crap have a good chance of destroying people who could make a real contribution to their future security and prosperity; a little like Nazi Germany shooting itself in the foot as it forced the exile of Jewish scientists...

[Warren Dew]

Late is better than never.

I'd never realized he had a conviction, let along [alone] "chemical castration".

Horrible as it was, it's a reminder to anyone feeling pessimistic about humans that the zeitgeist has moved on and up a pretty good pace, at least in a fair bit of the world...

But not in Russia, or Uganda, or Saudi Arabia, or pretty much anywhere in Africa or the "Arab world" for that matter. Actually, most of the world. Still a lot of intolerance and bigotry out there. Plenty right here in Englandshire too - just not officially anymore - which I suppose is something.

It really is something, since someone like Turing will not be hounded to death anymore in the civilised parts of the world. Remaining low-level intolerance from bigots will most likely decrease too - surveys of young people in Oz show steadily increasing total acceptance of gender preference; it's hardly an issue any more to them...

Indeed around here, someone in his situation might be getting massive doses of female sex hormones voluntarily, in preparation for a sex change operation.

And cultures that do that crap have a good chance of destroying people who could make a real contribution to their future security and prosperity; a little like Nazi Germany shooting itself in the foot as it forced the exile of Jewish scientists...

Not before bringing Europe into a world war, though.

[JimC]

Sure, but it hamstrung much of its scientific potential in the process. The number of Jewish refugee scientists who helped to develop the atomic bomb in the US is testament to that...

[FBM]

Now if someone would just make his machine...

[JimC]

Now if someone would just make his machine...

We are all Turing machines...

[Svartalf]

They broke Oscar Wilde, and I'll never forgive that.

[Rum]

This is great news. You can't re-write history and undo laws, so a pardon is the only way. The poor guy went through hell so this is at least an acknowledgement and an indication of gratitude.

[Audley Strange]

Some things. Western Liberal Intellectual Class Morality is a groovy blip in our species, but like all moral systems it is hypocritical and easily changed as we can see from the attempts to repeal the laws for homosexual marriage, nor is the public as liberal as we might like to think. Look at boring old Roy Jenkins struggles to push through social reforms in the 1960's in spite of the popular and common belief that we should have death sentences and homosexuals were a criminal threat. Almost single-handedly he pushed his ideology onto an ungrateful nation.

As I say, this is a blip and I think it easily reverted back. We choose our monsters like we choose our fashions and like fashion things have a way or being recycled. This is why we give a free pass to the deep homophobia and misogyny in other cultures while excoriating those in our own who are even slightly out of step with the moral fashions of the day. Its a pose.

Sad, I think, though not unexpected. We need "the other" to hate in order to ignore our own failings individually and culturally.

Also who really gives a fuck what the Windsor Pandas think about anything in this day and age? Oh what... about 42% of the U.K. well lets not start sucking our own cocks yet eh?

[JimC]

Some things. Western Liberal Intellectual Class Morality is a groovy blip in our species, but like all moral systems it is hypocritical and easily changed as we can see from the attempts to repeal the laws for homosexual marriage, nor is the public as liberal as we might like to think. Look at boring old Roy Jenkins struggles to push through social reforms in the 1960's in spite of the popular and common belief that we should have death sentences and homosexuals were a criminal threat. Almost single-handedly he pushed his ideology onto an ungrateful nation.

As I say, this is a blip and I think it easily reverted back. We choose our monsters like we choose our fashions and like fashion things have a way or being recycled. This is why we give a free pass to the deep homophobia and misogyny in other cultures while excoriating those in our own who are even slightly out of step with the moral fashions of the day. Its a pose.

Sad, I think, though not unexpected. We need "the other" to hate in order to ignore our own failings individually and culturally.

Also who really gives a fuck what the Windsor Pandas think about anything in this day and age? Oh what... about 42% of the U.K. well lets not start sucking our own cocks yet eh?

I disagree fundamentally. I think that western societies have made significant gains in the ethical treatment of people who were regarded as evil and depraved in the past because they were put into the "other" category, and that these are not some sort of trivial change in fashion, but real, and highly unlikely to be reversed.

Go back further, and you will find in our history the most horrible examples of cruelty to both humans and animals that were regarded as entertainment, but are unthinkable now.

Sure, a "Royal Pardon" has some baggage, but it is really only a symbol, and one with real meaning, irrespective of being royal or not.

As far as needing "the other" to hate, that tendency has always been with us. However, the licence we give to deciding who is "other", and the extent and vehemence of the actions we can allow ourselves have changed, and not trivially.

[pErvinalia]

Even I think we've made moral progress. There's no reason to think that would reverse if society holds it's shit together. I happen to think society won't hold it's shit together and the whole fucking lot will descend into chaos. I suspect at that point, gayness or colour will fade in comparison to important issues like food, health and security.

[Audley Strange]

I disagree fundamentally. I think that western societies have made significant gains in the ethical treatment of people who were regarded as evil and depraved in the past because they were put into the "other" category, and that these are not some sort of trivial change in fashion, but real, and highly unlikely to be reversed.

Go back further, and you will find in our history the most horrible examples of cruelty to both humans and animals that were regarded as entertainment, but are unthinkable now.

Sure, a "Royal Pardon" has some baggage, but it is really only a symbol, and one with real meaning, irrespective of being royal or not.

As far as needing "the other" to hate, that tendency has always been with us. However, the licence we give to deciding who is "other", and the extent and vehemence of the actions we can allow ourselves have changed, and not trivially.

Well I hope you're right and I'm wrong. However I'm not confident since I think the more liberal society becomes and the more tolerent one is expected to be given the excesses of certain groups (that could be any btw from Fat Cat Bankers, through Jesus Junkies to the Screaming Queen Mafia) then there will be eventually a backlash and sadly, the majority will always win through, especially since our societies politicians are less and less interested in social change and more and more interested in protecting their own jobs.

As I've said before and I think you specifically guilty of this Jim (no blame btw) the way we revile paedophiles, people who have clearly fundamental sexual illnesses is a good example of how our behaviour remains the same. And as I've also claimed before, we've just made "the other" people from the Middle East now, rather than say "the hun" and we are doing a sterling job in treating those nations like absolute shit, much the same we did in Africa during the 19th Century, only with even more firepower.

We're very good at changing targets, not so good at changing our behaviours.