But they wouldn't be discovered by rocks.Xamonas Chegwé wrote:Cicadas can count to prime numbers. The Fibonacci sequence is exhibited in sunflower seed-heads. The gravitational constant, Avogadro's number, Planck's constant, and c or rather, the mathematical relationships between them and which they represent) exist with or without human knowledge and would be discovered by any species investigating the universe.JimC wrote:In my opinion, numbers, and all the relationships between them, exist independently of human discovery.
The ratio between the radius and the circumference of the circle, 2 times Pi, exists in the universe whether some clever ancient Greeks described the phenomenon or not.
Intelligent aliens would recognise exactly the same irrational number, whatever language they used to describe it.
Do numbers exist in nature or are they human contructs?
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Re: Do numbers exist in nature or are they human contructs?
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]
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Re: Do numbers exist in nature or are they human contructs?
Without them, there would BE no rocks.PsychoSerenity wrote:But they wouldn't be discovered by rocks.Xamonas Chegwé wrote:Cicadas can count to prime numbers. The Fibonacci sequence is exhibited in sunflower seed-heads. The gravitational constant, Avogadro's number, Planck's constant, and c or rather, the mathematical relationships between them and which they represent) exist with or without human knowledge and would be discovered by any species investigating the universe.JimC wrote:In my opinion, numbers, and all the relationships between them, exist independently of human discovery.
The ratio between the radius and the circumference of the circle, 2 times Pi, exists in the universe whether some clever ancient Greeks described the phenomenon or not.
Intelligent aliens would recognise exactly the same irrational number, whatever language they used to describe it.

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Re: Do numbers exist in nature or are they human contructs?
Not to mention the relative strengths of the 4 fundamental forces and the relative masses of the fundamental particles - exact numerical values that are essential for the universe being the way it is - adjust any of these by a fraction of a percent and there would be no matter and hence no life. And then there are the quantum relationships - spin, charge, etc... 

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Re: Do numbers exist in nature or are they human contructs?
Agreed. Perhaps the only question revolves around the semantics of the term "exist". Matter, energy, and perhaps space time itself exist in a fairly "concrete" fashion. Numbers, and the relationships between them, have a more abstract form of existence. Both forms of existence have validity, but their properties are not identical.Xamonas Chegwé wrote:Cicadas can count to prime numbers. The Fibonacci sequence is exhibited in sunflower seed-heads. The gravitational constant, Avogadro's number, Planck's constant, and c or rather, the mathematical relationships between them and which they represent) exist with or without human knowledge and would be discovered by any species investigating the universe.JimC wrote:In my opinion, numbers, and all the relationships between them, exist independently of human discovery.
The ratio between the radius and the circumference of the circle, 2 times Pi, exists in the universe whether some clever ancient Greeks described the phenomenon or not.
Intelligent aliens would recognise exactly the same irrational number, whatever language they used to describe it.
There are physicists who say that the physical universe itself is, in some way, a manifestation of an underlying universe of pure numbers. Not sure I go that far...
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Re: Do numbers exist in nature or are they human contructs?
I've thought about this long and hard and have become comfortable with the basic logical quadrilemma: yes, no, both yes and no, neither yes nor no. 

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"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
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Re: Do numbers exist in nature or are they human contructs?
A situation that cannot exist without the existence of the number 4.FBM wrote:I've thought about this long and hard and have become comfortable with the basic logical quadrilemma: yes, no, both yes and no, neither yes nor no.

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Paco
Yes, yes. But first I need to show you this venomous fish!
Calilasseia
I think we should do whatever Pawiz wants.
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Re: Do numbers exist in nature or are they human contructs?
Humans constructed numbers and numerals but not math. They discovered math.
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The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter
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Re: Do numbers exist in nature or are they human contructs?
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:A situation that cannot exist without the existence of the number 4.FBM wrote:I've thought about this long and hard and have become comfortable with the basic logical quadrilemma: yes, no, both yes and no, neither yes nor no.

What is a 4 made of, btw? Something different from what a 3 is made of, I'd assume?
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
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Re: Do numbers exist in nature or are they human contructs?
Well, they constructed the symbols and words for numbers and numerals, but they were and are merely descriptors for a generalised property that individual things can be counted. It was simply a reflection that a group of 5 rocks on one hillside shared an important property with five trees on the opposite hillside. This was true whether early humans put symbols to the count or not...Gallstones wrote:Humans constructed numbers and numerals but not math. They discovered math.
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Re: Do numbers exist in nature or are they human contructs?
Fingers, thumbs and toes.
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Re: Do numbers exist in nature or are they human contructs?
For males, add eyes, ears, nostrils, prick and balls and you've reached 29!Făkünamę wrote:Fingers, thumbs and toes.
Absolutely prime!

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Re: Do numbers exist in nature or are they human contructs?
420 is not a prime.
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Re: Do numbers exist in nature or are they human contructs?
Neither is Wednesday. Or yellow.Făkünamę wrote:420 is not a prime.
A book is a version of the world. If you do not like it, ignore it; or offer your own version in return.
Salman Rushdie
You talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic.
House MD
Who needs a meaning anyway, I'd settle anyday for a very fine view.
Sandy Denny
This is the wrong forum for bluffing
Paco
Yes, yes. But first I need to show you this venomous fish!
Calilasseia
I think we should do whatever Pawiz wants.
Twoflower
Bella squats momentarily then waddles on still peeing, like a horse
Millefleur
Salman Rushdie
You talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic.
House MD
Who needs a meaning anyway, I'd settle anyday for a very fine view.
Sandy Denny
This is the wrong forum for bluffing

Paco
Yes, yes. But first I need to show you this venomous fish!
Calilasseia
I think we should do whatever Pawiz wants.
Twoflower
Bella squats momentarily then waddles on still peeing, like a horse
Millefleur
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Re: Do numbers exist in nature or are they human contructs?
Here's a pretty good introduction to the debate:
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
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Re: Do numbers exist in nature or are they human contructs?
Which brings us back to the question I posited about whether Pythagorus Theorem pertaining to an actual domain of platonic forms or just arbitrary extrapolation of pattern recognition.JimC wrote:Agreed. Perhaps the only question revolves around the semantics of the term "exist". Matter, energy, and perhaps space time itself exist in a fairly "concrete" fashion. Numbers, and the relationships between them, have a more abstract form of existence. Both forms of existence have validity, but their properties are not identical.Xamonas Chegwé wrote:Cicadas can count to prime numbers. The Fibonacci sequence is exhibited in sunflower seed-heads. The gravitational constant, Avogadro's number, Planck's constant, and c or rather, the mathematical relationships between them and which they represent) exist with or without human knowledge and would be discovered by any species investigating the universe.JimC wrote:In my opinion, numbers, and all the relationships between them, exist independently of human discovery.
The ratio between the radius and the circumference of the circle, 2 times Pi, exists in the universe whether some clever ancient Greeks described the phenomenon or not.
Intelligent aliens would recognise exactly the same irrational number, whatever language they used to describe it.
There are physicists who say that the physical universe itself is, in some way, a manifestation of an underlying universe of pure numbers. Not sure I go that far...
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... pythagoras.
Was a good topic.
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