Substances NOT To Be Messed With ...

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Re: Substances NOT To Be Messed With ...

Post by Mysturji » Fri May 17, 2013 3:33 pm

JacksSmirkingRevenge wrote::shock:

What the fuck do you keep it in?
Calilasseia wrote:Metal vessels whose interiors have been pre-fluoridated by something less vicious. By forming a protective fluoride layer on the inside of a stainless steel vessel, you render the vessel safe from attack, because the only substances this chemical can't attack are those that have already been well and truly fluorinated. However, you need to handle the vessel with care: if any part of that protective fluoride layer is accidentally damaged, all hell breaks loose.

I suspect Teflon may be impervious to attack by ClF3 too, on account of the fact that Teflon is also heavily fluoridated. Teflon, otherwise known as PTFE (polytetrafluoroethene) is formed by polymerising the compound C2F4, and the resulting polymer is wonderfully chemically inert. However, it's possible that ClF3 could be powerful enough to break down the polymer and release tetrafluoromethane from the reaction. Personally, I'd prefer for someone else to perform this empirical test. Preferably whilst I'm on a different continental land mass.
From that, I'd have to say that the safest place to keep that stuff is inside a tube of toothpaste.
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Re: Substances NOT To Be Messed With ...

Post by Calilasseia » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:28 am

And now, for your delectation and delight ... let's see what happens when we react caesium metal with fluorine, shall we?


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Re: Substances NOT To Be Messed With ...

Post by Jason » Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:01 am

Vapourize a city's water supply and drop airborne particles of cesium in the vapourized fluorine. Fluorine will vapourize at an EM frequency of.. .. ..
Obviously the signal would have to broadcast from somewhere far away.. probably in orbit. Like a satellite network. STAR WARSV.20!

Anywho, I'm rambling like Reagan.

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Re: Substances NOT To Be Messed With ...

Post by Tero » Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:12 am

No hood? I handled 5% Fluorine in N2 once. Enough for me. I used a hood.

Back to the materials list
1. Cesium
2. Fluorine
3. Stuff Lozzer uses

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Re: Substances NOT To Be Messed With ...

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:17 am

Pernod. Seriously, it's like aniseed glue. Disfuckinggusting. :ani:
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Re: Substances NOT To Be Messed With ...

Post by Jason » Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:21 am

What about 7N? In an oxygen-free environment.. Suck that IcBM.
Pernod Pickard? :ask:

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Re: Substances NOT To Be Messed With ...

Post by MrFungus420 » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:48 am

JacksSmirkingRevenge wrote:
JimC wrote:
JacksSmirkingRevenge wrote::read:
Wood chipper. Just point it at a hole in the ground, throw your problem in one end and the 'solution' will come out of the other. Sorted in seconds and environmentaly friendly...just clean it off with a hose and return it to wherever you hired it from.
:demon:

Re dangerous substances - Has anyone here ever made any nitrogen triiodide? Sounds fun.
If that's touch powder, a friend made some when we were kids...

Very sensitive stuff...
That's another name for it, I think.
I understand that if you make too much in one batch then it will detonate under it's own weight.

Mix some sugar into the solution and, voila! explosive ant traps!
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Re: Substances NOT To Be Messed With ...

Post by FBM » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:37 pm

JacksSmirkingRevenge wrote:
JimC wrote:
JacksSmirkingRevenge wrote::read:
Wood chipper. Just point it at a hole in the ground, throw your problem in one end and the 'solution' will come out of the other. Sorted in seconds and environmentaly friendly...just clean it off with a hose and return it to wherever you hired it from.
:demon:

Re dangerous substances - Has anyone here ever made any nitrogen triiodide? Sounds fun.
If that's touch powder, a friend made some when we were kids...

Very sensitive stuff...
That's another name for it, I think.
I understand that if you make too much in one batch then it will detonate under it's own weight.

Holy fuck, that's some tetchous shit! :shock:
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Re: Substances NOT To Be Messed With ...

Post by Calilasseia » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:38 am

Oh, if you think nitrogen triiodide is volatile stuff, check out the substances being synthesised in the Klapötke Lab. These people are bolting together chains of nitrogen atoms, in the hope of alighting upon explosives that don't produce corrosive or toxic by-products. One of the substances they produced was so unstable, it blew up whilst they were trying to obtain an infra-red spectrum from less than a milligram of it. Just one milligram destroyed a Raman spectrometer. One of the papers published recently from the lab was entitled The CN7- Anion. That's right, a carbon atom with seven nitrogen atoms attached thereto in a chain. Not satisfied with manufacturing this anion, they then set about combining it with all sorts of cations to see if this would stabilise the anion. The sodium salt is reputedly no more hazardous than sodium azide, but the lead salt is the stuff that flying glass shards and shrapnel - in quantity - are made of. It's a basic rule of thumb that large cations with lots of electron shells, in combination with unstable anions, are hideously explosive. Big, fluffy cations like lead and mercury lend themselves admirably to the production of bangy substances (see, for example, mercury fulminate, whose name alone tells you what it's like). When you combine these with wacky chains of nitrogen atoms, you have a recipe for some very big and loud bangs indeed.

It's even worse if your nitrogen complexes contain at least one nitrogen atom that is forced to maintain a formal positive charge. Nitrogen atoms don't like this one bit, so nitrogen complexes with such atoms in them have a desire to fall apart at the drop of a hat. Klapötke's laboratory is cooking up quite a few of these at the moment, so if you have academic access to JACS, you can have lots of fun finding out how the Klapötke Lab is finding new ways of propelling its lab apparatus out of the window.

One discovery that contained a few surprises, centres upon something rejoicing in the wonderful name of heaxnitrohexaazoisowurzitane. Isowurzitane is a sort of cage complex of carbon and nitrogen atoms, which itself is, shall we say, interesting to handle. Then, for good measure, the chemists bolted a whopping six azo groups onto it, which is enough to make many more reasonable chemists reach for their running shoes. Not satisfied with that, they then bolted six nitro groups onto it (nitro groups, NO2, are always good for loud bangs, e.g., TNT). The mere mention of the words "hexanitro" alone makes many sane people want to be a long way away from the test tube fast. To the surprise of the chemists who cooked this up, the molecule is surprisingly resistant to shock, vibration, etc., to an extent that would not be suspected from its molecular structure, which suggests that there's some interesting bond interactions going on in this molecule. However, when you detonate it, it packs one hell of a punch.

The point to remember here, is that nitrogen atoms have a longing to become stable N2 molecules. Because these molecules contain a triple bond, once they're formed, they're resolutely stable. It takes a hell of a lot of energy to break them apart (e.g., Haber process for ammonia manufacture, the basis of the world's fertiliser industry). Trouble is, weird complexes of nitrogen atoms want to convert themselves to N2 with a lot of passion, so to speak, and from the standpoint of thermodynamics, this is not a gentle slope. Those nitrogen chain complexes have huge amounts of bond energy just itching to wind up as heat, and they have a habit of going all the way to N2 without any gentle steps to less energetic intermediates. To say that the decomposition of these weird chains is a violently exothermic process, is like saying the Pope is a Catholic. When all that fizzing bond energy is dumped into a small region of space during the decomposition, the result is lots and lots of extremely hot nitrogen gas, which has a habit of expanding very quickly indeed. Some of these molecules can produce expanding shock waves whose speed goes beyond the supersonic, and enters the fast hypersonic realm. When your shock front is travelling at something like Mach 5, you know you're dealing with something special.

The aim of people such as the bods at the Klapötke Lab, is to find a chain of nitrogen atoms (or, in some of their more exotic experiments, a ring system!) that remains stable until you set it off. Stable enough, that is, to withstand the sort of handling they'll receive on a battlefield, packed into shells, being dropped by untrained or partly trained soldiers, fired out of guns, etc., only detonating when the fuse says "party time, boys!" They haven't hit found this particular pyrotechnic and chemical holy grail yet, but they're giving it their all looking for it. You can find out more about their activities here. Enjoy the twee manner in which they describe their experimental explosives as "energetic materials". You know they're dealing in seriously bangy stuff, when the chemicals in question have names involving multiple invocations of phrases such as "aminotetrazole", "nitrotetrazolate", etc. One of their compounds, guanidinium azotetrazolate, has the alarming formula C4H12N16 ... yes, there's sixteen nitrogen atoms in that one, all waiting to strut their thermodynamic stuff and send shrapnel heading your way at several times the speed of sound. That's before we start talking about octanitrocubane (yes, eight nitro groups bolted to a cubane cage ...).

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Re: Substances NOT To Be Messed With ...

Post by Calilasseia » Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:27 am

Meanwhile, how about bad smells?

Attaching oxygen atoms to organic molecules, quite frequently, leads to things with pleasant fragrances. Quite a few of the compounds used in perfumery are assorted esters, aldehydes and ketones, many of them originally found in things such as rose flowers and citrus fruits. In a way, given that oxygen is something we breathe as an essential respiratory gas, it's probably not surprising to discover that our nostrils are attuned to things containing oxygen atoms as being pleasant, though of course there are some exceptions to watch out for, usually in the form of certain carboxylic acids (see: vinegar).

Move down the periodic table from oxygen to sulphur, and things undergo a fairly significant change, though given how sulphur is essential to quite a bit of our underlying biochemistry (see, for example, insulin, which relies upon cysteine amino acids forming a disulphide bond), you might wonder why it is that certain sulphur compounds are, shall we say, pungent. And in some of those cases, toxic into the bargain. Replace the oxygen atom in water with a sulphur atom, and you have hydrogen sulphide, a gas that smells of rotten eggs in low concentrations. Once the gas is in high enough concentrations to smell sweet, however, that's the time to reach for your best running shoes, because at this point, the gas becomes as toxic as cyanide, and the "kill mechanism" is somewhat similar, i.e., binding stably to all your haemoglobin molecules and rendering them useless for oxygen transport.

Other sulphur compounds have similar bad stenches. Replace the oxygen atoms in carbon dioxide with sulphur atoms, and you have carbon disulphide, which smells of rotting cabbage, and is one of the few solvents known that will dissolve elemental sulphur. Other pungent compounds include the mustard oils produced by brassicas, allicin from garlic, and of course, substances such as thiophenol, which is notoriously bad smelling.

Move down the periodic table another step, however, and you hit selenium. What happens if you replace oxygen atoms with selenium atoms?

Well, one such compound is selenocysteine, a weird amino acid that just happens to find use in some of our enzymes, though fortunately we only need traces of it. I haven't seen any data on its odour, but once you start substituting selenium atoms in other compounds, oh boy is the literature replete with references. Selenophenol, for example. Which is possibly one of the most nauseating substances ever to be cooked up in a laboratory. Carbon diselenide is another compound in this category, reputedly so foul that an accidental escape of a few grams of vapour from a laboratory were enough to result in the evacuation of an entire village. Think of several organoselenides as being the Platonic ideal of noxious, and you won't go far wrong.

I haven't seen any reports on the odours of organotellurium compounds, though the mass of the tellurium atom probably prevents many of these being volatile. I suspect, however, that any tellurium compounds that are volatile, will be seriously bad news for the nostrils. Though I have seen one comment to the effect that a chemist used "tellurium breath" as an insult for people he didn't like, which probably points to the rarities in the organotellurium world being (and this is a truly horrific thought) even worse smelling than the organoselenides.

Next step down is polonium, which is a radioactive poison in any case, and may consequently have very few references in the literature. I don't think there's a chemist alive who would perform a sniff test on an organopolonium compound. :)

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Re: Substances NOT To Be Messed With ...

Post by Jason » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:20 am

Is this Opposite World? :ask:

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Re: Substances NOT To Be Messed With ...

Post by Seth » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:27 am

Calilasseia wrote: Once the gas is in high enough concentrations to smell sweet, however, that's the time to reach for your best running shoes, because at this point, the gas becomes as toxic as cyanide, and the "kill mechanism" is somewhat similar, i.e., binding stably to all your haemoglobin molecules and rendering them useless for oxygen transport.
I recall from my hazmat training that Hydrogen Sulfide gas renders your sense of smell ineffective at high concentrations, which is one of the reasons it's so deadly. By the time you notice something is wrong, it's too late. "Poison gas wells" are wells that emit large quantities of Hydrogen Sulfide and kill well-drillers with alarming frequency, which is why in places where it's know to happen they have very sensitive gas detectors monitoring things and respirators available for emergency use.

The instruction I recall for response to a Hydrogen Sulfide chemical leak can be thoroughly encapsulated in two words: "RUN AWAY!

And don't stop running for at least a mile...
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Re: Substances NOT To Be Messed With ...

Post by Calilasseia » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:30 am

If your sense of smell stops working, then it's too late, you're almost certainly facing death within about 3 minutes at that point.

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Re: Substances NOT To Be Messed With ...

Post by Calilasseia » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:48 am

Meanwhile, the recent Mexican truck robbery has given me another substance not to be messed with ... Cobalt-60.

One of the less publicised facts about radioactive isotopes, is the relationship between activity and half life. Briefly, substances with long half-lives (of the order of 109 years or more), precisely because they take a long time to decay, will emit fewer radiation quanta per unit time per mole, than substances with a short half-life. An extreme example is provided by Bismuth. The only isotope of this element occurring naturally is Bi209, and whilst according to the relevant theory of nuclear interactions, it should be radioactive, no radioactivity was detected in this isotope for a long time. Only after some very intricate experiments, was it determined that Bi209 is indeed radioactive. However, it's half-life is extremely long - as in 1.6 × 1019 years. Under normal circumstances, you'll have to wait 20 years of more for a single atom of Bi209 to undergo radioactive decay, which is why it took scientists so long to detect this - they had to surround a suitably large sample with geiger counters in a specially shielded chamber for this length of time, and take numerous diligent steps to weed out false positive signals from other sources.

On the other hand, isotopes with short half-lives are flooding their surroundings with radioactive emissions at a much more prodigious rate. This is where Co60 comes in. Co60 has a half-life of just 5½ years or thereebouts, and as a corollary, is pretty much fizzing with radiation. Isotopes of this nature are the sort of substances you only want to approach from the other side of a fairly thick lead shield. In the case of Co60, the problem isn't the primary radiation: as a beta decaying isotope, the beta rays (electrons) it emits can be brought to a halt by a relatively thin sheet of mild steel. What makes Co60 problematic, is that it also emits gamma rays, and fairly energetic ones at that, which is why you need a decent lead shield in place.

Worse still, the element Cobalt can integrate itself into biochemical systems fairly readily. Vitamin B12 contains a Cobalt atom in its molecule, and whilst metallloproteins containing Cobalt are fewer in number than those containing, say, Iron, enough of them are present to make Cobalt an element with some biological significance. Though of course, Cobalt's significance as a trace element becomes rapidly overwhelmed if you ingest too much of this element, whereupon it turns around and becomes a toxin, as will several other trace elements that are useful in small quantities (see, for example, Selenium). Problem is, of course, if that ingested Cobalt is in the form of Co60, it goes straight to the liver, kidneys and bone, and starts wreaking all sorts of mayhem. Usually manifesting itself in nasty, difficult to treat and fulminating cancers several years down the line, after both the beta and gamma rays have got to work on the surrounding tissues. Not good.

Of course, the energetic gamma rays make it useful for radiotherapy, but handling this isotope for this purpose requires due care and attention. Trouble is, in some parts of the developing world, medical radiotherapy machines might not receive that due care and attention, and the recent Mexican incident is a case in point. Trouble being, of course, that Co60 can become a particularly nasty radiation hazard if it is released from the confines of the machine.

Worse still, its troublesome nature as a radioactive pollutant, also make it pretty devastating if packaged into a 'dirty bomb'. This, incidentally, doesn't have to be a nuclear device, though nuclear devices can be constructed specifically to generate large quantities of Co60, for the purpose of rendering an area uninhabitable for years after the detonation. It's possible to surround conventional explosives with powdered Co60, and create a localised radiation 'hot spot' that's just as nasty. Which is why the international community is not best pleased over the recent Mexican incident.

Yes, another substance not to be messed with, and one that's more insidious over the long term than some of the previous nasties I've covered in this thread.

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Re: Substances NOT To Be Messed With ...

Post by mistermack » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:31 pm

You've reminded me of a time, nearly forty years ago, I was drinking at the bar of a pub near the shores of Loch Ness.
Two local lads came in, they looked to be in their late teens.
They came to the bar, and said ''two Cobalt Bombs please''.
The barman said, ''hey lads, you're not going to cause trouble, are you?''
They said, ''no no, we just want a quiet drink''.
So the barman started making them. I can't remember what went into it, there was all sorts of high-strength exotic shots going into it, one after the other. There was enough alcohol in one of them to last me a week. They took about five minutes to make.

It was the barman's reaction that made me laugh. They must have had some real trouble, from Cobalt Bomb drinkers.
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