The case against guns

[mistermack]

I agree that suicide isn't much of an argument against guns. It's a small part of the overall case.

But suicide does spill over into the field of mass killings.
People who go on a shooting spree are generally prepared to die, or even want to die. They just feel like taking others with them. I can sympathise with that point of view.
But if I was suicidal, I'd try to take some really unpleasant people with me, not a crowd of innocents.

Generally though, I think suicide on it's own isn't a good enough reason to ban guns. But it is a good reason for making the storage of guns more secure, so that teenagers can't get their hands on them.
And for raising the age-limit for permission to have access to guns.

[NuclMan]

So guns make people want to kill themselves?

They make the act of killing yourself easier. Or so it would appear. After very strict laws regarding gun ownership were enacted in Australia, gun control proponents crowed about the massive drop in the rate of suicide by firearms. What they failed to mention is that it had no effect on the overall suicide rate at all. People simply killed themselves by other means.

Any cource for this? I wiki'd but even that article needs citation.

From the Australian Bureau of Statistics: In 1995, the year before the anti-gun legislation and accompanying buy-back program, 389 people committed suicide by firearm and 699 by hanging. Ten years later gun related suicides had dropped to 147 fatalities, but suicide by hanging had gone up to 1068.

1068 seems like an aberration. Thanks for the link.

[NuclMan]

The point is that there is no argument to be made for banning guns to prevent suicide. Like every other stupid anti-gun argument, it's just a red herring fallacy. It's no more rational to ban guns to prevent suicide than it is to ban rope, razor blades, Tylenol, prescription drugs, enclosed garages, internal combustion engines or tall buildings.

People who commit suicide want to commit suicide and we can't operate society on the premise that nothing that can possibly harm someone intent on committing suicide must be banned. You'd have to ban bridges over rivers, sea shores, cliffs, trees, etc..

This line is nothing more than a derail attempt.

Here's me thinking the thread and OP was about limiting freedom of firearm ownership - not an outright ban.

Also, nice to see utter disregard for minors offing themselves with poorly controlled weapons. Understandable though when are they are considered as harmless and utilitarian as rope and Tylenol etc.

[NuclMan]

I agree that suicide isn't much of an argument against guns. It's a small part of the overall case.

But suicide does spill over into the field of mass killings.
People who go on a shooting spree are generally prepared to die, or even want to die. They just feel like taking others with them. I can sympathise with that point of view.
But if I was suicidal, I'd try to take some really unpleasant people with me, not a crowd of innocents.

Generally though, I think suicide on it's own isn't a good enough reason to ban guns. But it is a good reason for making the storage of guns more secure, so that teenagers can't get their hands on them.
And for raising the age-limit for permission to have access to guns.

At least someone's getting it,,,

[Hermit]

So guns make people want to kill themselves?

They make the act of killing yourself easier. Or so it would appear. After very strict laws regarding gun ownership were enacted in Australia, gun control proponents crowed about the massive drop in the rate of suicide by firearms. What they failed to mention is that it had no effect on the overall suicide rate at all. People simply killed themselves by other means.

Any cource for this? I wiki'd but even that article needs citation.

From the Australian Bureau of Statistics: In 1995, the year before the anti-gun legislation and accompanying buy-back program, 389 people committed suicide by firearm and 699 by hanging. Ten years later gun related suicides had dropped to 147 fatalities, but suicide by hanging had gone up to 1068.

1068 seems like an aberration. Thanks for the link.

Not if you graph the figures for that decade. They pretty much plateaued at a significantly higher level after the gun control legislation and associated gun buy-back scheme, and that plateau was significantly higher than the number of deaths by hanging in the year before as well as those during the transitional year.

[JimC]

Hermit wrote:

...the gun control legislation and associated gun buy-back scheme...

I turned in 2 semi-automatic .22 rifles, an M1 carbine, a pump action Mossburg 12 gauge, and a delightful bolt action Mauser 303/250 with a scope!

I am now unable to fight off the black helicopters!


(OK, so my eyesight was going, and I conned the buy-back scheme into giving me a profit, but I still miss my guns!)

[Gallstones]

[Seth]

I agree that suicide isn't much of an argument against guns. It's a small part of the overall case.

But suicide does spill over into the field of mass killings.
People who go on a shooting spree are generally prepared to die, or even want to die. They just feel like taking others with them. I can sympathise with that point of view.
But if I was suicidal, I'd try to take some really unpleasant people with me, not a crowd of innocents.

Now try to integrate the fact that if and when somebody decides to do so in your vicinity, the police aren't going to be there in time to save you or a bunch of other people. Only the people who are right there, right then have any chance whatsoever of putting a stop to the carnage, which is extremely difficult (though not impossible) to do if you don't have some sort of arms parity with the shooter.

[Seth]

The point is that there is no argument to be made for banning guns to prevent suicide. Like every other stupid anti-gun argument, it's just a red herring fallacy. It's no more rational to ban guns to prevent suicide than it is to ban rope, razor blades, Tylenol, prescription drugs, enclosed garages, internal combustion engines or tall buildings.

People who commit suicide want to commit suicide and we can't operate society on the premise that nothing that can possibly harm someone intent on committing suicide must be banned. You'd have to ban bridges over rivers, sea shores, cliffs, trees, etc..

This line is nothing more than a derail attempt.

Here's me thinking the thread and OP was about limiting freedom of firearm ownership - not an outright ban.

Also, nice to see utter disregard for minors offing themselves with poorly controlled weapons. Understandable though when are they are considered as harmless and utilitarian as rope and Tylenol etc.

I only disregard the argument when it's used as a stalking horse for banning guns because it's an idiotic argument.

[Seth]

Hermit wrote:

...the gun control legislation and associated gun buy-back scheme...

I turned in 2 semi-automatic .22 rifles, an M1 carbine, a pump action Mossburg 12 gauge, and a delightful bolt action Mauser 303/250 with a scope!

I am now unable to fight off the black helicopters!


(OK, so my eyesight was going, and I conned the buy-back scheme into giving me a profit, but I still miss my guns!)

Another one drinks the Kool-Aid. You should have sold them to someone else so that they would at least stay in circulation rather than now being in the hands of the government, where they will disappear into a crucible somewhere and emerge as a plow, which is utterly useless as a defensive weapon.

But, they were your guns and you have a right to do as you please with YOUR guns. What you don't have a right to do is conspire with others to dictate what other people will do with their guns.

Oh, and no bitching if you find yourself needing a gun and don't have one, okay?

[JimC]

Yes Seth, I promise I won't bitch about it...

Sheesh!



Edit - I don't miss my guns for their ability to protect me, but because they were fun to shoot!

[Clinton Huxley]

I don't miss my guns. I never had any guns. I'm about as likely to ever need a gun as I am to need a 19th Century steam-carousel. And I'd rather have the steam carousel.

[JimC]

I don't miss my guns. I never had any guns. I'm about as likely to ever need a gun as I am to need a 19th Century steam-carousel. And I'd rather have the steam carousel.

Surely your gamekeeper chap has a few about his person?

[Clinton Huxley]

I don't miss my guns. I never had any guns. I'm about as likely to ever need a gun as I am to need a 19th Century steam-carousel. And I'd rather have the steam carousel.

Surely your gamekeeper chap has a few about his person?

Double-barrelled Tazer. Modern.

[Tero]

>>would at least stay in circulation rather than now being in the hands of the government, <<

Into the hands of criminals.