Found not guilty, then judge says he may be guilty

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Seth
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Re: Found not guilty, then judge says he may be guilty

Post by Seth » Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:49 pm

rEvolutionist wrote: Yes, I know how it works now. I'm suggesting that it should be changed to stop idiots from deciding the fate of other people.
As any black person in the United States how well it works to rely on the government and judges for justice.

Although I agree with you in part, because the system today weeds out the intelligent and educated precisely because they are intelligent and educated because the lawyers want jurors who are plastic and malleable and can be lead to a pre-determined conclusion by the nose.

Only the tension between the defense and prosecution keeps this practice in some semblance of balance.

That's why I favor completely random jury selection with no voir dire.

That gives the defendant the best chance at a "fair" trial because nobody gets to even try to manipulate the system to their benefit.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Found not guilty, then judge says he may be guilty

Post by Seth » Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:50 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
Fuck off, it's not self-defence to shoot someone in the back as they make off with money gained from a broken contractual agreement.
Evidently in Texas it is. That's a good reason not to do so don't you think?
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Found not guilty, then judge says he may be guilty

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:11 am

What I think is that both you and Texans don't know what "self-defence" is.
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Re: Found not guilty, then judge says he may be guilty

Post by Warren Dew » Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:42 am

Seth wrote:Although I agree with you in part, because the system today weeds out the intelligent and educated precisely because they are intelligent and educated because the lawyers want jurors who are plastic and malleable and can be lead to a pre-determined conclusion by the nose.
That may be part of it, but part of it is also that in most states, intelligent and educated people are likely to have a larger financial incentive to get out of jury duty, and more ability to do so.
That's why I favor completely random jury selection with no voir dire.

That gives the defendant the best chance at a "fair" trial because nobody gets to even try to manipulate the system to their benefit.
I might agree that this kind of randomness would be likely to be "fair" in that it's as likely to be biased against one side as against the other. However, what we want isn't a "fair" system in that sense - we want a system that is biased in favor of the defendant in that it minimizes incorrect judgements against the defendant to a much greater extent than it minimizes incorrect judgements in favor of the defendant.

I'd be especially concerned about random jury selection in well publicized cases.

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Re: Found not guilty, then judge says he may be guilty

Post by Warren Dew » Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:45 am

Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Fuck off, it's not self-defence to shoot someone in the back as they make off with money gained from a broken contractual agreement.
Evidently in Texas it is. That's a good reason not to do so don't you think?
"Evidently"? Where's the evidence? The guy claimed he was aiming for the tires; as long as the jury believed that, he would be found not guilty of murder, even if his actions were criminal.

And rEv, you claim to be intelligent, but having to resort to insults comes across as evidence to the contrary.

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Re: Found not guilty, then judge says he may be guilty

Post by JimC » Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:23 am

Warren Dew wrote:
Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Fuck off, it's not self-defence to shoot someone in the back as they make off with money gained from a broken contractual agreement.
Evidently in Texas it is. That's a good reason not to do so don't you think?
"Evidently"? Where's the evidence? The guy claimed he was aiming for the tires; as long as the jury believed that, he would be found not guilty of murder, even if his actions were criminal.

And rEv, you claim to be intelligent, but having to resort to insults comes across as evidence to the contrary.
I have never heard rEv claim he was intelligent.

Personally, I think he is...
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Re: Found not guilty, then judge says he may be guilty

Post by Seth » Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:32 am

rEvolutionist wrote:What I think is that both you and Texans don't know what "self-defence" is.
So you know better than 26 million people do you?

Megalomania much?
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Found not guilty, then judge says he may be guilty

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:23 am

Warren Dew wrote:
Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Fuck off, it's not self-defence to shoot someone in the back as they make off with money gained from a broken contractual agreement.
Evidently in Texas it is. That's a good reason not to do so don't you think?
"Evidently"? Where's the evidence? The guy claimed he was aiming for the tires; as long as the jury believed that, he would be found not guilty of murder, even if his actions were criminal.

And rEv, you claim to be intelligent, but having to resort to insults comes across as evidence to the contrary.
Not that I deny dishing out insults every now and then, but in this case I was merely telling his argument to fuck off.
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Re: Found not guilty, then judge says he may be guilty

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:24 am

JimC wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:
Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Fuck off, it's not self-defence to shoot someone in the back as they make off with money gained from a broken contractual agreement.
Evidently in Texas it is. That's a good reason not to do so don't you think?
"Evidently"? Where's the evidence? The guy claimed he was aiming for the tires; as long as the jury believed that, he would be found not guilty of murder, even if his actions were criminal.

And rEv, you claim to be intelligent, but having to resort to insults comes across as evidence to the contrary.
I have never heard rEv claim he was intelligent.

Personally, I think he is...
:swoon:
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"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
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"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

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Re: Found not guilty, then judge says he may be guilty

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:24 am

Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:What I think is that both you and Texans don't know what "self-defence" is.
So you know better than 26 million people do you?

Megalomania much?
Lol. Self defence is defence in aid of the SELF. Shooting someone in the back because they allegedly stole money off you isn't defending yourself. Texans are idiots, clearly.
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"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
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"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

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Re: Found not guilty, then judge says he may be guilty

Post by JimC » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:40 am

rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:What I think is that both you and Texans don't know what "self-defence" is.
So you know better than 26 million people do you?

Megalomania much?
Lol. Self defence is defence in aid of the SELF. Shooting someone in the back because they allegedly stole money off you isn't defending yourself. Texans are idiots, clearly.
But rEv, you forget...

In a certain mindset, possessions are self...
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Re: Found not guilty, then judge says he may be guilty

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:08 am

There's no doubt that will be (and always has been) Seth's line of reasoning. It's bollocks though.
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"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

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Re: Found not guilty, then judge says he may be guilty

Post by Seth » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:34 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:What I think is that both you and Texans don't know what "self-defence" is.
So you know better than 26 million people do you?

Megalomania much?
Lol. Self defence is defence in aid of the SELF. Shooting someone in the back because they allegedly stole money off you isn't defending yourself. Texans are idiots, clearly.
Self defense includes under its ambit the defense of others, and it also can encompass defense of property which is part of the "self." If all you have is 20 dollars with which to feed yourself, and someone steals that 20 dollars, he places your life and safety in jeopardy by robbing you of the resources necessary for survival. Or to be more basic, if all you have is one loaf of bread or morsel of food between you and starvation, someone who tries to steal it is trying to kill you and defending that morsel as if your life depends on it...perhaps using lethal force, is entirely justifiable.

Extending that reasoning to other less vital property or situations is a decision that the community gets to make, and its decision about when lethal force is authorized reflects the beliefs, values and concerns of the particular society involved.

Texas holds personal safety and sovereignty and personal property in high esteem and believes that there is no excuse to allow criminals to terrorize and harm law-abiding members of the public, particularly at night when the conditions favor sneak attack and easy escape. Texas values the sovereignty of its citizens more than it values the safety of a criminal engaged in committing a crime, as well it should.

If you don't want to get shot in Texas, don't steal stuff at night. How much more simple can it get?
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Found not guilty, then judge says he may be guilty

Post by Warren Dew » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:52 pm

JimC wrote:I have never heard rEv claim he was intelligent.
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 0#p1448618

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Re: Found not guilty, then judge says he may be guilty

Post by JimC » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:54 am

Warren Dew wrote:
JimC wrote:I have never heard rEv claim he was intelligent.
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 0#p1448618
:lol:

A somewhat tongue in cheek remark, one feels...
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