Somebody who has a gun is threatening you...

[Jason]

That's uncalled for.

Obviously it was unthinkable to him at the time, as it is for many people, and it took him a moment to process it. It's a common reaction in unfamiliar and alarming circumstances.

[Collector1337]

That's uncalled for.

Obviously it was unthinkable to him at the time, as it is for many people, and it took him a moment to process it. It's a common reaction in unfamiliar and alarming circumstances.

You hear strange voices that shouldn't be there and nothing clicks for you?

Wake the fuck up.

[Blind groper]

Collector

You and Seth consistently maintain the same image of callousness and lack of empathy. "Wake the fuck up" is not a statement indicating that you have any understanding of other people's mental state.

Anyway, the thing that the gun nutters in this discussion seem to fail to understand is that if a person is threatening them with a gun, and they are carrying their hand gun, either in a holster or concealed, and they try to get it out to shoot the assailant, they will rapidly become dead. Having a gun for self defense is no use whatever if your assailant has a gun also, and his gun is in his hand and pointed at you. An attempt to pull out a gun for defense in that position is simply a way to demonstrate how evolution works!

[Seth]

Collector

You and Seth consistently maintain the same image of callousness and lack of empathy. "Wake the fuck up" is not a statement indicating that you have any understanding of other people's mental state.

Actually, we have a keen and incisive understanding of the mental state of most sheeple, like those who walk obliviously into their home when there's a disturbance going on inside. We understand that they do this sort of thing because, as Făkünamę said, it takes them a moment (or the rest of their life) to process the unusual situation. This is proof of the maxim of critical response training that says, "In a crisis, you will revert to your training. If you fail to train, you will do nothing." And that's what happened. Faced with an unusual circumstance Hermit reverted to his training, or lack thereof, and continued doing what he habitually does when he comes home...he went inside to see what was going on without ever once thinking it might be an armed burglary in progress.

One of the things that carrying a concealed weapon does is help to remind you to be on your toes at all times and never to be in "Condition White." The training that we go through just to get the permit gives us a leg up on Hermit and other sheeple like him because it makes us think tactically and thereby avoid walking into a deadly situation.

Although I've been retired for a long time, I STILL stop outside the convenience store for a half a minute to observe what's going on inside before I enter, just so I don't walk in on a robbery in progress, as I was trained to do in the Academy. And I still never, ever sit with my back to the door in any public place.

That's because I've spent countless hours training and planning for how to handle armed threats, so my reactions are not inhibited by my lack of understanding and knowledge.

Anyway, the thing that the gun nutters in this discussion seem to fail to understand is that if a person is threatening them with a gun, and they are carrying their hand gun, either in a holster or concealed, and they try to get it out to shoot the assailant, they will rapidly become dead.

That depends entirely on the individual and his level of skill and training. It takes the average human being 0.75 seconds to react to a stimulus, which is why people get "sucker punched" all the time. Then it takes another 0.75 seconds for the average person to decide what to do about the stimulus and begin taking physical action to deal with it. This is why there is a "three second rule" in following other cars on the highway...which the vast majority of people ignore. It takes you 1.5 seconds minimum (on average) to perceive and react to the car ahead slamming on the brakes.

It also takes you 1.5 seconds to get your fists up when somebody suddenly and without warning punches you in the nose.

And it takes at least 1.5 seconds for an armed crook to perceive my going for my gun and do something about it.

I have a proven ability to draw and fire my handgun from concealment in 0.76 seconds consistently. There is no delay for me because I have already decided what I'm going to do.

Therefore, it's a simple matter for me to draw and fire two to the chest and one to the head before the thug can possibly perceive and react. I've got at least a three-quarter second jump on him even if he's pointing the gun right at my face...which is a really good place for him to point it because it makes it ridiculously easy to move, block, draw and shoot all at the same time so even if he DOES get a shot off it misses. I don't.

Having a gun for self defense is no use whatever if your assailant has a gun also, and his gun is in his hand and pointed at you.

What the fuck would YOU know about it? You've never been trained in armed self-defense with a handgun so your claim comes directly out of your colon and smells like it did. I've been training in armed self-defense for more than THIRTY YEARS, much of that as a professional and range training officer for the police department.

So shut the fuck up about that about which you know nothing whatsoever.

An attempt to pull out a gun for defense in that position is simply a way to demonstrate how evolution works!

Yeah, for the bad guy.

Now, all that being said, there ARE times when you don't automatically draw and fire, such as a situation where another person is being held hostage or you don't have a clear shot, or there are multiple armed assailants. In such situations the tactics change and flow with the event...but I train for that too, so at least I know what to do and when to do it.

You know nothing at all about the subject and are blowing it all right out of your ignorant ass.

[Animavore]

One thing I know about robbers and other perps is that they're largely incompetent. Take the Dublin gangster, The Viper, for instance. He's been shot seven times in failed hits on separate occasions. Fucking seven! How is that even possible? I went shooting in Prague and every shot landed in and around the centre of the targets and that was on my first time shown how to use a gun. My friend couldn't shoot for shit in the laneway beside me. I emptied clips and had to wait patiently for him to slowly fire off shots one by one, his gun swaying, to move on to the next firearm. The last time the Viper got shot at he was taken unawares and the guy still missed. As the Viper fled he got shot in the sole of his foot, that tells me the shooter done exactly what the guy at the gun club told me not to do, it was lesson one for fuck's sake! He pulled the trigger hard instead of squeezing it lightly making the barrel dip as he did so. These guys are desperate, they are usually edgy and high-strung and full of fear themselves. It wouldn't surprise me that a person well trained with a gun can take out a perp before the idiot even knew what happened for no less a reason than a person trained in martial arts can take out a random idiot starting a fight with a few well placed slaps.

[Tero]

I used to go birding alot and there were all these old people in the group. We had tripods for scopes, but they really should have had them for binoculars as well, as most of them were shaky.

Some people have shaky hands all their lives.

But the guy in the scenario is just holding the gun. You can't tell how well he shoots or even if he has bullets. What do you do?

[Blind groper]

I think there are too many people on this forum who believe they are Clint Eastwood with the cameras adjusted for speed.

No. If a felon is holding a gun pointed at you, with his finger on the trigger, you do not draw a gun from concealment, aim, and fire, and kill him before he pulls that trigger. Anyone who thinks he can is a blithering idiot, and probably destined to become a dead idiot.

[Collector1337]

I think there are too many people on this forum who believe they are Clint Eastwood with the cameras adjusted for speed.

Stereotyped thinking.

Intellectually dishonest and pathetic.

No. If a felon is holding a gun pointed at you, with his finger on the trigger, you do not draw a gun from concealment, aim, and fire, and kill him before he pulls that trigger. Anyone who thinks he can is a blithering idiot, and probably destined to become a dead idiot.

Naiveté and ignorance.

Do you think that when a criminal points a gun at a cop, does the cop:

1. Put his hands up and follows the criminal's orders?

or

2. Draws and fires on the criminal pointing a gun at him immediately?

[Seth]

I think there are too many people on this forum who believe they are Clint Eastwood with the cameras adjusted for speed.

I think there's one person on this forum at least who doesn't know his asshole from a hole in the ground when it comes to handgun use and self-defense tactics. That would be you.

No. If a felon is holding a gun pointed at you, with his finger on the trigger, you do not draw a gun from concealment, aim, and fire, and kill him before he pulls that trigger. Anyone who thinks he can is a blithering idiot, and probably destined to become a dead idiot.

Says the one who knows nothing at all about armed self defense with (or without) a handgun.

Here's a little test for you: You and a friend stand facing each other within arm's reach. You both hold a banana down at your side. Your friend is instructed to raise the banana and poke you in the chest with it without any warning to you. You try to poke him in the chest the instant you see him move.

See how many times he pokes you in the chest successfully before you poke him. I'm betting it's 100 percent of the time.

Now imagine that the bananas are handguns and you're facing me, a person who's trained for years to draw and fire three rounds faster than you can pull the trigger once.

BangBang, Bang, you're dead.

The problem with your Hollywood paradigm is that the "Code of the West" calls for the hero to wait till the bad guy starts to draw first, and then he outdraws and shoots him...which is complete bullshit. In reality the famous gunmen, bad and good alike, used every device and advantage they could come up with to AVOID exactly that sort of showdown, and the only time the second person to draw lived was when the first person to draw was such a bad shot that they didn't hit the other guy with the first round, giving the "hero" the opportunity to get a first-round hit because firing a single-action revolver a SECOND time is ALWAYS slower than a draw-and-fire, for purely mechanical reasons.

And most "gunfights" in the old west took place at much longer distances than you see in most movies, so accuracy was much more important than speed.

When face to face with an armed thug, at distances up to 7 yards in fact, I can outdraw literally anyone if I choose the moment. It is, as I said, pure physics in action. The important variable is still accuracy. FBI research shows that the average police-involved shooting takes 3.2 seconds and a total of 3 rounds are fired by all parties (as of the last time I checked), and that your average crook is a lousy shot and only hits his target about 15 percent of the time to begin with, and of those shots which actually connect, only 15 percent of them produce fatal wounds, and only a very tiny fraction result in instant incapacitation. Most often the target is wounded and dies later.

Therefore the chances of sustaining an instantly fatal or incapacitating wound from your average mugger is very, very small.

And that's WHY my practice consists of always firing at least two and usually three rounds: two to center-mass and one to the head if it's still there when my sights settle...all this in 0.76 seconds.

Modern double-action revolvers don't have that deficit, nor do modern semi-automatic pistols. [urlhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLk1v5bSFPw]Here[/url] is Jerry Miculek's world-record 12 rounds with a reload in under 3 seconds. That's SIX rounds in well under one second. I only need 1, but send 3.

Go look at Jerry's video again and realize that he is NOT choosing the start moment, he's waiting for a signal from the timer. His reaction times are finely honed from decades of practice and he knows how long after he pushes the button it is before the tone sounds, so his perception/reaction time is minimal.

Now consider the fact that the mugger doesn't actually really want to kill anyone (most likely) he just wants the swag so he can run away. So what he's thinking about is getting the swag and whether there are any witnesses around and he's NOT thinking much about whether his victim is going to draw a handgun and kill him in the next 3/4 of a second. That slows his reaction time even more because as I start my draw he will be puzzled because he's expecting something else...either fear or compliance...not an attack, so he has to process the threat once it's been perceived as a threat (and he may think I'm going for my wallet), so he's way behind the curve when the lead starts flying.

Of course I'm something of an exception because I've been training for exactly such a scenario for a very, very long time on a nearly weekly basis. Grandma, with her pistol down in the bottom of her purse buried in her stuff isn't going to want to try to shoot a thug who's got the drop on her. Nor is the neophyte CCW permittee who just started wearing his or her pistol regularly. So for them the best thing to do is hand over the wallet and wait till the mugger turns away and THEN draw and shoot him...in the back.

And yes, it's legal to do so at least here because he's attempting to escape a robbery while in possession of a deadly weapon, which justifies the use of deadly force.

So, Mr. Ignorant-about-handgun-self-defense-tactics, quit trying to teach your grandpa how to suck eggs.

[Jason]

But the guy in the scenario is just holding the gun. You can't tell how well he shoots or even if he has bullets. What do you do?

Drop trou and start wanking furiously.

[orpheus]

It's curious that the most rude, aggressive, and short-tempered people in this thread are the "responsible gun owners".

[Blind groper]

To Seth, who is sure he can outshoot anyone else holding a banana.

The scenario we offer is a guy pointing a gun at you, and you claim you can draw a gun from concealment, aim, fire, and kill him before his finger can move two millimetres to activate the trigger.

Pull my other leg. It plays Yankoo Doodle!

[Tyrannical]

To Seth, who is sure he can outshoot anyone else holding a banana.

The scenario we offer is a guy pointing a gun at you, and you claim you can draw a gun from concealment, aim, fire, and kill him before his finger can move two millimetres to activate the trigger.

Pull my other leg. It plays Yankoo Doodle!

But is it a Black guy? Cause they hold their guns sideways, and at 20 feet away you're probably safe

[Blind groper]

Actually, Tyrannical, it is probably someone you know, holding your own hand gun, in your home, and shooting you in the back. Which makes any and all gun training and practice totally pointless.

The situation this thread has been exploring is a very minor part of the total number of gun murders.

[JimC]

A highly unlikely event in the civilised world, so I am unconcerned...