Guns used for lawful self-defense Pt. 5

[Seth]

Even hand guns can remain under restricted conditions without causing the current level of harm. Just limit them to registered pistol clubs, where they are owned by the club, kept in secure safes, used for target shooting, and not permitted off the premises.

Not legal in my country so put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Sigh.

We're talking about what should be done, Collector. Arguing what would be a better state of affairs. It's notable that gun folks will happily do this until they are stymied by a point they cannot rebut - at which point they will do this anatomically remarkable trick of pointing to the 2nd Amendment whilst simultaneously sticking their fingers in their ears.

No, we're not talking about what should be done, we're talking about what is.

[MrJonno]

This is about the time Seth starts making claims about this mystery non- crime called a 'hot burglary' and how violent assaults are more common in the UK despite the fact the US federal government doesn't even count common assault which strangely enough is the more common type of violence.

Anyone who thinks its ok to use lethal force to defend their wallet not only shouldn't have a gun they shouldn't be allowed a wallet either

[Seth]

This is about the time Seth starts making claims about this mystery non- crime called a 'hot burglary' and how violent assaults are more common in the UK despite the fact the US federal government doesn't even count common assault which strangely enough is the more common type of violence.

Anyone who thinks its ok to use lethal force to defend their wallet not only shouldn't have a gun they shouldn't be allowed a wallet either

Strawman. As I specifically said, it's not the "defending the wallet" that justifies the use of force, lethal or otherwise, it's the use or threatened use of force against the person by the criminal that justifies defensive force. If you walk up to me and politely ask "May I have your wallet please?" I can't shoot you. But if you step out from behind a bush wearing a mask and waving a knife in my faces saying "Hand over your wallet motherfucker or I'll cut you" it is THAT threat that I'm legally justified in responding to with instant lethal force.

The wallet has little or nothing to do with it.

[Seth]

More data:

Crime
Brooklyn Robbers Flee After 10-Year-Old’s Warning Shot…With THEIR Gun!
Jun. 4, 2013 6:00pm Erica Ritz

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10 Year Old Brooklyn Boy Scares Off Would Be Robbers With Warning Shot From Their Gun

Police say a 10-year-old boy foiled a would-be robbery in his Brooklyn-area home. (Photo: MYFOXNY)

NEW YORK (TheBlaze/AP) — A 10-year-old Brooklyn boy foiled a would-be robbery by two individuals disguised as deliverymen, police say, using their own gun to scare them off.

The thugs were able to enter boy’s house around 5:30 p.m. on Monday, ordering his two teenage sisters to stay put while they searched the house. The 10-year-old escaped upstairs to where his mother was, followed shortly thereafter by the suspects.

It is unclear whether the family was armed, but the boy and his mother resorted to some quick thinking when one of the men came their way.

Seeing the thug cautiously entering the room — using his gun to open the door — either the mother or the boy slammed the door so hard on the man’s arm that he dropped the gun. Reports conflict as to who rushed the door — the Associated Press is reporting that it was the mother, while local media outlets are primarily reporting that it was the son.

Either way, we know for sure that the 10-year-old picked up the weapon without delay, and fired a shot that hit a wall.

Police say one of the suspects actually fired back, but no one was hit and the men fled the home without stealing a single thing.

The home was located in Canarsie, a south Brooklyn residential neighborhood that ends at the Jamaica Bay.

“They have a store, so maybe the person who robbed them knew there was a lot of cash in there,” Kimberly Lindo speculated for the New York Post. “Look, they have two brand-new BMWs in the driveway…I don’t know, that’s kind of unusual for this neighborhood.”

Police are still investigating the matter. No names have yet been given, but the suspects are described as men in their 20′s.

[Blind groper]

Seth

When will you wake up to the fact that an anecdote is not data?

It is just a story. It does not represent a trend or an argument. It does not even matter if the story is true or not. The world is full of true stories about weird things that happen. The only conclusion to be drawn from those stories is that there are a lot of weird people out there.

[Seth]

Seth

When will you wake up to the fact that an anecdote is not data?

No, because it is data.

It is just a story.

It's a recitation of factual occurrences that go towards disproving your thesis that DGU's are "rare."

It does not represent a trend or an argument.

Of course it's an argument. It says "you're full of shit and here's the proof."

It does not even matter if the story is true or not. The world is full of true stories about weird things that happen. The only conclusion to be drawn from those stories is that there are a lot of weird people out there.

See, I could present 2.5 million sworn affidavits with video evidence and multiple witnesses of DGU's and you'd still just blithely dismiss them as "anecdotes." That doesn't prove anything other than that you are completely and irredeemably biased and unobjective on this subject.

[Seth]

More data:

Crime
Concealed Carry Holder Delivers Line of the Week to Would-Be Crook: You’re Either ‘Leaving in a Squad Car or in a Box’
Jun. 4, 2013 2:01pm Mike Opelka

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A Fort Myers, Florida, homeowner and CCW permit holder is getting thanked by police and his neighbors after stopping a one-man crime spree that was taking place early morning last Sunday.
Gun-toting homeowner stopped burglar

Adam Canales held burglar at gunpoint until police arrived

Adam Canales told TheBlaze that he was awakened by his daughter at 5am on Sunday. The 25-year-old girl was visiting her dad when she was roused from her sleep by a masked man jiggling the sliding glass door that opened into her bedroom. The locked door prevented the would-be crook from breaking into the house, and he moved on — to the house next door.

The young lady continued to watch the burglar from inside the house as he broke into a car on the driveway next door. She woke up her father and explained what she had seen as she dialed 911 to report the crime in progress to the police. Adam grabbed his licensed .45 handgun and went outside in hopes of stopping the crime in progress and detain the man until police could arrive.

Alleged burglar - Randall Hicks

The criminal, 18-year-old Randall Hicks, was finishing up cleaning out the car next door when he came face to face with Mr. Canales and his firearm. Realizing that he was caught red-handed, Hicks tried to convince Canales to let him go. Adam told TheBlaze that Hicks offered him money or a share of what he had taken from the car on his neighbor’s driveway and from others he had broken into that night.

That’s when Adam Canales delivered the line of the week, telling the cornered crook: You’re either “leaving in a squad car or in a box.”

When TheBlaze asked Canales about the line, he chuckled and said, “People like options, so I gave him his options.”

At that point, Mr. Hicks realized he was in no position to negotiate and gave up, lying down on the driveway until police arrived. Canales shared with us that the young burglar was well known to the local authorities. He reportedly had many similar run-ins with the law before last Sunday. However, this was Randall Hicks’ first arrest as an adult.

Police searched Hicks and discovered a variety of items (digital cameras, knives, phone chargers, etc.) that he had allegedly taken from cars up and down the street. At dawn, the police knocked on doors and started connecting homeowners with the items that had been taken from their cars as they slept. At the end of the day, the young man had been charged with 11 different crimes, 8 felonies and 3 misdemeanors. And, because he was wearing a mask, the burglary and attempted burglary charges are upgraded to a more serious level.

There was another shocking twist to this story. The local television station, NBC2 reported that Randall Hicks lived in the neighborhood and probably knew most of the people he was robbing.

NBC2 reported on the story on Monday.

[Blind groper]

To Seth

Since you love anecdotes so much, here is one.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/ ... ZZ20130405

In brief, this is about a person who wrestled with a policeman, and shot that policeman with his own gun, before going on to shoot himself.

Now, if I were to go on to try to draw general conclusions (like saying police should not carry guns since they just end up being shot with their own weapon), I would be doing a Seth, writing bullshit.

Yet if I were to put in a bit of internet research tine, I could find dozens of similar anecdotes. Trying to use those anecdotes for general conclusions would be total intellectual crap. As are your anecdotes, Seth.

[Seth]

To Seth

Since you love anecdotes so much, here is one.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/ ... ZZ20130405

In brief, this is about a person who wrestled with a policeman, and shot that policeman with his own gun, before going on to shoot himself.

Now, if I were to go on to try to draw general conclusions (like saying police should not carry guns since they just end up being shot with their own weapon), I would be doing a Seth, writing bullshit.

Yet if I were to put in a bit of internet research tine, I could find dozens of similar anecdotes. Trying to use those anecdotes for general conclusions would be total intellectual crap. As are your anecdotes, Seth.

Probably. But what does that have to do with anything? Nobody said having a handgun is a guarantee against being killed or victimized, merely that it's the best defense available. Cops get shot with their own guns all the time, in large part because they are a) constantly in contact with violent criminals as a matter of course, which significantly elevates their chances of being disarmed; and b) because they wear their guns openly, which crooks take into account when attacking them.

The purpose of a CONCEALED handgun is that the crook doesn't know you have it until about a quarter-second before he sees the flash that ends his sorry life.

[Blind groper]

The point, Seth, is to try to hammer home to you, the simple fact that anecdotes are useless.

For every anecdote you came up with to show hand guns are good, I could (with a little internet searching) come up with one that shows hand guns are bad.

What is needed is someone to put all stories together, apply strong statistical analysis to the results, and publish the conclusions in a reputable peer reviewed journal.

Oh wait!
That was the New England Journal of Medicine study that showed owning a hand gun increased your risk of being killed by 2 to 4 fold.

[JimC]

The point, Seth, is to try to hammer home to you, the simple fact that anecdotes are useless.

For every anecdote you came up with to show hand guns are good, I could (with a little internet searching) come up with one that shows hand guns are bad.

What is needed is someone to put all stories together, apply strong statistical analysis to the results, and publish the conclusions in a reputable peer reviewed journal.

Oh wait!
That was the New England Journal of Medicine study that showed owning a hand gun increased your risk of being killed by 2 to 4 fold.

He will simply say that, if so, that is by incompetent, poorly trained gun owners, not steely-eyed, square-jawed macho men like me...

I shoot anyone bothering me!

[Seth]

The point, Seth, is to try to hammer home to you, the simple fact that anecdotes are useless.

For every anecdote you came up with to show hand guns are good, I could (with a little internet searching) come up with one that shows hand guns are bad.

Go right ahead. Get on it. Because for every "anecdote" you can present showing that handguns are "bad" I can simply point to one single instance of anyone, anywhere, anytime ever in the history of mankind using a handgun to save someone's life from a criminal attack and that will be sufficient to utterly refute any and all "bad" incidents you might find.

This is because this is NOT, as I have said before, a matter of statistics or counting up good and bad incidents. It's about INDIVIDUAL rights and safety. If a handgun saves even ONE life, it completely justifies every handgun in law-abiding hands. You cannot argue that because people either do stupid things with handguns (which is rare and getting rarer) or they do criminal things with guns, that therefore the rights of everyone else to their individual personal safety can or should be infringed upon. That's just stupid. It's precisely the same thing as saying that because one person kills someone driving drunk in their car, that we have to ban all cars. We keep repeating this metaphor and you keep on ignoring it and refusing to answer the challenge posed by it. Cars kill many times the number of people that handguns do each and every year. So do drunk drivers in cars. Using your logic we must ban all cars because some cars are used for bad purposes. That's exactly what you're arguing in re handguns.

So, would you care to actually address the metaphor and explain to us why we should ban handguns if we should not also ban cars?

Or are you just going to ignore the metaphor that destroys your agenda again.

What is needed is someone to put all stories together, apply strong statistical analysis to the results, and publish the conclusions in a reputable peer reviewed journal.

Oh wait!
That was the New England Journal of Medicine study that showed owning a hand gun increased your risk of being killed by 2 to 4 fold.

The rights of the individual are not to be infringed based on a statistical analysis of anything. Just because 8000 people misuse handguns in no way impeaches the right of the other 300 million or so to have and use their handguns lawfully.

We keep telling you this, and you keep just ignoring it. You're being mendaciously intellectually dishonest in your argumentation.

So justify your reasoning. Why should we not ban cars if we should ban handguns?

[Seth]

The point, Seth, is to try to hammer home to you, the simple fact that anecdotes are useless.

For every anecdote you came up with to show hand guns are good, I could (with a little internet searching) come up with one that shows hand guns are bad.

What is needed is someone to put all stories together, apply strong statistical analysis to the results, and publish the conclusions in a reputable peer reviewed journal.

Oh wait!
That was the New England Journal of Medicine study that showed owning a hand gun increased your risk of being killed by 2 to 4 fold.

He will simply say that, if so, that is by incompetent, poorly trained gun owners...

Which is absolutely true. Most gun accidents, and particularly gun accidents involving children happen in places and to people who are grossly ignorant about firearms and therefore handle them unsafely. The solution to that problem is not to ban guns, but rather to make educating our children in proper gun safety and marksmanship part of the mandatory curriculum of every school in the US.

[JimC]

The point, Seth, is to try to hammer home to you, the simple fact that anecdotes are useless.

For every anecdote you came up with to show hand guns are good, I could (with a little internet searching) come up with one that shows hand guns are bad.

What is needed is someone to put all stories together, apply strong statistical analysis to the results, and publish the conclusions in a reputable peer reviewed journal.

Oh wait!
That was the New England Journal of Medicine study that showed owning a hand gun increased your risk of being killed by 2 to 4 fold.

He will simply say that, if so, that is by incompetent, poorly trained gun owners...

Which is absolutely true. Most gun accidents, and particularly gun accidents involving children happen in places and to people who are grossly ignorant about firearms and therefore handle them unsafely. The solution to that problem is not to ban guns, but rather to make educating our children in proper gun safety and marksmanship part of the mandatory curriculum of every school in the US.

Part agreement.

Anyone who owns and uses guns, as allowed for in whatever jurisdiction they are in, should be well-trained and competent in their safe use.

[MrJonno]

The rights of the individual are not to be infringed based on a statistical analysis of anything. Just because 8000 people misuse handguns in no way impeaches the right of the other 300 million or so to have and use their handguns lawfully.

Damn right they should be, others screw up and your life gets restricted thats how civilization works. We make rules bases on how the most incompetent act not how the most skilled do

I guess Seth didnt get many class detections at school, one kid misbehaves and the entire class is punished by having stay behind. It's an important lessons that he obviously didnt pick up