Guns Because

[Coito ergo sum]

Now, I don't think our government is tyrannical, nor do I think that people in the UK, Canada, Oz and NZ live in tyrannical places. Just making a point regarding the prevalent nature of tyranny and the apparent fleeting nature of liberty and individual freedom. Note, Germany was a perfectly sane (relatively speaking) country prior to the 1930s. The people in Germany were not evil. They weren't more murderous or hateful than in other countries. Yet, somehow, one of the most oppressive tyrannies in history arose in a short period of time. Suddenly, the people in Germany were gripped by a fearsome tyrant, and suddenly a system arose where children turned in their parents as traitors and people of the wrong religion were kidnapped by the State, rounded up and executed.

Disagree that the people of Germany were not evil, a significant % of them were and an even greater % were indifferent. This produced Hitler and the Nazi's , it wasn't Hitler that created the Death camps it was the people. Evil people produce evil governments, evil governments rapidly collapse without significant support (or indifference).

They must still be more evil then. Evolution doesn't happen in a couple-three generations.

How were the German people different from those they were fighting, less history of democracy, more economic failure and humiliation in WW1 but overall not that different.

Which is what I said.

Any nation can turn to that level of evil, even today in the UK depending on how you want to count somewhere between 1 and 25% of the population would be quite happy to turn a blind eye if dodgy people got round up into security camps. Would they initially run the gas chambers probably not would they be bothered if the government did so not really.
Almost certainly with religious fundamentalism in the US the figures over there are going to be higher

Oh, of course, we are sure that the figures in the US would be higher. Always.

The point is that people are people, and with the right circumstances the same thing can happen in Britland as happened in Germany. The German people weren't naturally more "evil" than anyone else.

Tyranny doesn't come from a few people at the top , it starts with popular movements that then spread. The stormtroopers arent some distant government agent they are your neighbour, your butcher, clockmaker they are you.

That's what I said. You're contradicting yourself. First you say the German people were more evil than other peoples. Now you say that all the individual people (you, me and the butcher) are the source of tyranny. Which is it? Or, are German butchers, clockmakers, etc., even more likely to produce an evil government?

Anyone who thinks the lesson from Nazi Germany is you have to watch your government has completely missed the point, you need to watch the general public including yourself.

To paraphrase a gun nut, the only thing that can stop a bad government is a good one

This is bull. The general public need to be denied the right to impose their will over the fundamental liberties of the individual, and by extension, the government must also be denied that right. In that way, tyranny is prevented.

[MrJonno]

That's what I said. You're contradicting yourself. First you say the German people were more evil than other peoples. Now you say that all the individual people (you, me and the butcher) are the source of tyranny. Which is it? Or, are German butchers, clockmakers, etc., even more likely to produce an evil government?

The Germans had developed a culture that had more anti-social (there is no absolute good/evil) tendencies than other countries (but not by a massive amount) combined with environmental conditions produced Hitler. Current German culture (while not bigot free) is almost certainly the last place on Earth to bring back fascism mainly because their kids are taught from birth that its a very bad thing

There is no contradiction tyranny begins at the bottom and rises to the top (like all real problems in society), governments are the only force capable of preventing this

[Coito ergo sum]

That's what I said. You're contradicting yourself. First you say the German people were more evil than other peoples. Now you say that all the individual people (you, me and the butcher) are the source of tyranny. Which is it? Or, are German butchers, clockmakers, etc., even more likely to produce an evil government?

The Germans had developed a culture that had more anti-social (there is no absolute good/evil) tendencies than other countries (but not by a massive amount) combined with environmental conditions produced Hitler. Current German culture (while not bigot free) is almost certainly the last place on Earth to bring back fascism mainly because their kids are taught from birth that its a very bad thing

There is no contradiction tyranny begins at the bottom and rises to the top (like all real problems in society), governments are the only force capable of preventing this

But, governments have never "prevented" this. They are this.

[MrJonno]

But, governments have never "prevented" this. They are this.

Of course they prevent this, in fact I would say its there must important role

Why do we have elections?, is so we can between us find the best way to run society and ensure a better life for all, as much as I would love to believe that its something a lot more basic

What elections are is basically war but in a more civilised manner, different tribes (classes,religions, races, social groups) agree to have a bloodless war every few years where one side wins the war and the other side accepts they have lost but only on the basis of a guaranteed rematch later on. Other government methods to stop different groups killing each other, bribes, fear of punishment,fear of someone outside your country, fear of people inside your country (what people ignore about nazism is while it picked on a few particularly minorities it managed to unite everyone else internally, if it hadn't pissed of everyone else externally I'm sure history would have seen it as a successful system in bringing about a stable society).

Governments failing to prevent tyranny are the exception and only other governments can fix it

[Seth]

Society is not my master.

You are replacing what used to be a religious rational to rule, with "society," or whatever the mob wants you must comply with, because somehow it is inherently right and infallible.

I am not at the mercy of the whims of "society."

My existence is only possible due to society, so yes it is at the whims of society. An individual alone is a completely useless animal that can achieve absolutely nothing.

No government = death of 99% of the human race and I'm not stupid enough to think I'm in the 1 %

Has someone suggested that there should be no government? Is the only option we have an either/or scenario -- complete lack of government or complete submission to the will of a the majority in all things? Is there no option between those two extremes?

Not to the socialist dependent class. They are unable to survive without the Nanny State.

[Seth]

Collector1337 wrote:

...that might not want to turn on its own citizens...

That would almost certainly not turn on its own citizens...

That, in fact, is at the heart of my point. You and Seth are worried about defeating a hypothetical tyrannical police state that is just not going to happen...

Oh, I don't know. I'm not sure that guns in private hands will prevent it, but tyranny is arguably the natural state of mankind. It is only in very recent times that a small portion of the globe has enjoyed freedom, liberty, liberal government and prosperity. These are fleeting concepts in the history of humanity.

I hope that it is a new thing, but a trend, and something the rest of the world will one day emulate. But, to sit in western Europe, Canada, the US, Oz and NZ and proclaim that tyranny is impossible these days because we fortunate few have enjoyed living in free countries for a few generations -- well, that's a bit naive. Most of the world today lives in appalling tyrannies, and the best thing for those countries would be a liberal, freedom loving rebellion of armed citizens.

Guns alone can't do it, but an Enlightened people who eschew dogmatic religion and believe in liberty for all, even infidels, can overthrow a tyrannical government with arms. It happens.

Now, I don't think our government is tyrannical, nor do I think that people in the UK, Canada, Oz and NZ live in tyrannical places. Just making a point regarding the prevalent nature of tyranny and the apparent fleeting nature of liberty and individual freedom. Note, Germany was a perfectly sane (relatively speaking) country prior to the 1930s. The people in Germany were not evil. They weren't more murderous or hateful than in other countries. Yet, somehow, one of the most oppressive tyrannies in history arose in a short period of time. Suddenly, the people in Germany were gripped by a fearsome tyrant, and suddenly a system arose where children turned in their parents as traitors and people of the wrong religion were kidnapped by the State, rounded up and executed.

That shit CAN happen. And, it CAN happen here. Here being wherever any one of us is. Don't pretend that your country is an exception. Germany was not genetically evil. Any group of humans can wind up where they wound up.

Well said. Very well said indeed.

[Seth]

Now, I don't think our government is tyrannical, nor do I think that people in the UK, Canada, Oz and NZ live in tyrannical places. Just making a point regarding the prevalent nature of tyranny and the apparent fleeting nature of liberty and individual freedom. Note, Germany was a perfectly sane (relatively speaking) country prior to the 1930s. The people in Germany were not evil. They weren't more murderous or hateful than in other countries. Yet, somehow, one of the most oppressive tyrannies in history arose in a short period of time. Suddenly, the people in Germany were gripped by a fearsome tyrant, and suddenly a system arose where children turned in their parents as traitors and people of the wrong religion were kidnapped by the State, rounded up and executed.

Disagree that the people of Germany were not evil, a significant % of them were and an even greater % were indifferent. This produced Hitler and the Nazi's , it wasn't Hitler that created the Death camps it was the people.

According to most average Germans, they didn't even know about the death camps. That's one reason that the Allies put the locals to work burying the dead after the war was over.

Evil people produce evil governments, evil governments rapidly collapse without significant support (or indifference). How were the German people different from those they were fighting, less history of democracy, more economic failure and humiliation in WW1 but overall not that different. Any nation can turn to that level of evil, even today in the UK depending on how you want to count somewhere between 1 and 25% of the population would be quite happy to turn a blind eye if dodgy people got round up into security camps.

Precisely correct. Depending on the circumstances the number is much much higher than 25% though. And that's exactly how tyranny happens. A demagogue comes along and convinces the people that they are in peril, usually blaming it on a specific group, like the Jews or Muslims, and very carefully the pressure and fear is racheted up to create a mob mentality among the dependent class, who aren't strong enough to resist such influences because they are incapable of being independent. The panic spreads, particularly in authoritarian regimes like Germany where the populace has been bred and raised to be obedient to government authority. When the fear level is high enough the people themselves will DEMAND that something be done, and will follow anyone who promises them a solution, even if the solution won't work or is evil beyond comprehension.

It happened in Germany, it's happened all over the world throughout history, it's happening right now all over the world. Coito is absolutely right, it's supreme arrogance to sit in a functioning society and claim that tyranny can't happen when it IS happening everywhere around you. You have absolutely no idea how quickly it can happen, and it happens faster to a dependent class culture that can be threatened with being cut off from government benefits and support. That's exactly how Obama got elected twice, he promised the dependent class more largesse from the treasury and threatened them with economic destruction if Romney won, and they believed him. How did that work out for them? Not so well, our economy sucks and is getting worse. Next is to turn up the pressure by creating an enemy to focus on...like the NRA and gun owners...which kills two birds with one stone by not only consolidating power over the dependent class but also gives him the power to disarm the people, which he MUST do if his Marxist plans are to come to fruition.

You're a perfect example of a Marxist useful idiot who can be manipulated by a tyrant into supporting the evilest of actions because, as you point out to us so often, you are utterly dependent on government for your survival, and therefore you will agree to ANYTHING the government asks of you, even acceding to concentration camps for undesirable if it keeps you safe.

That's how it works.

[MrJonno]

You're a perfect example of a Marxist useful idiot who can be manipulated by a tyrant into supporting the evilest of actions because, as you point out to us so often, you are utterly dependent on government for your survival, and therefore you will agree to ANYTHING the government asks of you, even acceding to concentration camps for undesirable if it keeps you safe

If the society/government around you is failing, the only sensible thing to do is run and find somewhere it isnt. If your neighbours want you dead you dont' need guns you need new neighbours or more realistically somewhere else to live

[Coito ergo sum]

You're a perfect example of a Marxist useful idiot who can be manipulated by a tyrant into supporting the evilest of actions because, as you point out to us so often, you are utterly dependent on government for your survival, and therefore you will agree to ANYTHING the government asks of you, even acceding to concentration camps for undesirable if it keeps you safe

If the society/government around you is failing, the only sensible thing to do is run and find somewhere it isnt. If your neighbours want you dead you dont' need guns you need new neighbours or more realistically somewhere else to live

Craven to the last...

[MrJonno]

I will fight when its more dangerous for me personally not to, lottery winning odds

[Coito ergo sum]

Living in fear. Enjoy.

[MrJonno]

Living in fear. Enjoy.

Nope, if I was to feel scared where I live I would move to somewhere where I didn't.

[Seth]

You're a perfect example of a Marxist useful idiot who can be manipulated by a tyrant into supporting the evilest of actions because, as you point out to us so often, you are utterly dependent on government for your survival, and therefore you will agree to ANYTHING the government asks of you, even acceding to concentration camps for undesirable if it keeps you safe

If the society/government around you is failing, the only sensible thing to do is run and find somewhere it isnt. If your neighbours want you dead you dont' need guns you need new neighbours or more realistically somewhere else to live

Or new neighbors. Run if you like. I'll stand and fight.

[Seth]

I will fight when its more dangerous for me personally not to, lottery winning odds

By the time you realize that the situation is that dire, it will be far too late for you to arm yourself, train yourself, and align yourself with other like-minded individuals for common defense and support. You'll be kneeling in front of a ditch with a gun barrel at the back of your head pissing your pants and wondering how such a thing could have happened. Right before the lights go out forever.

And I'll be in the weeds taking out one tyrant's minion (or hopefully the tyrant) at a time from a thousand yards away because I was smart enough, prudent enough, foresighted enough, and courageous enough to realize that poor planning promotes piss poor performance.

[MrJonno]

And I'll be in the weeds taking out one tyrant's minion (or hopefully the tyrant) at a time from a thousand yards away because I was smart enough, prudent enough, foresighted enough, and courageous enough to realize that poor planning promotes piss poor performance.

How much planning do you need to shoot up the local school?, I suppose its self defence against future socialists when they grow up.

Government job is to protect me from people like you, the real threat to freedom