"shall" vs "will"?

[PsychoSerenity]

I think "shall" is more of a "command", rather than the "forecast" of "will".

[MiM]

Shall v. will is interesting as it often comes into play in contracts - collective bargaining agreements in my experience. Often a lot of niggling is done between these two words in negotiations to define precisely what the obligation is.

Here's a distinction in terms of its use in legal documents: http://www.utexas.edu/law/faculty/wschi ... -will.html

To correctly use "shall," confine it to the meaning "has a duty to" and use it to impose a duty on a capable actor. Bryan A. Garner, A Dictionary of Modern Legal Usage 940–941 (2d ed., Oxford U. Press 1995). Here's how:
Lessee shall sell the remaining oil . . .
In other words--
Lessee [an actor capable of carrying out an obligation] shall [has a duty to] sell the remaining oil . . .
Some suggest that lawyers are incapable of using "shall" correctly, so we ought to banish it entirely. Michèle M. Asprey, Shall Must Go, 3 Scribes J. Leg. Writing 79 (1992). One recommendation is to use "must" instead. Of course, you cannot search and replace every "shall" with "must." Scrutinize each use carefully.

This makes me yearn for the North Koreans to attack.

You can believe, I have been sitting through some "interesting" discussions about this, when negotiating technical documents pertaining to the CTBT. No North Koreans there, but South Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, Iranians, Israeli, Russians... and fifty other nations. It can get rather interesting to negotiate the exact wording of a text, when most parties are not native in the language used (as of course, neither am I).

[FBM]

I think "shall" is more of a "command", rather than the "forecast" of "will".

Yeah, but he's gay, so that don't count nothing.

You can believe, I have been sitting through some "interesting" discussions about this, when negotiating technical documents pertaining to the CTBT. No North Koreans there, but South Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, Iranians, Israeli, Russians... and fifty other nations. It can get rather interesting to negotiate the exact wording of a text, when most parties are not native in the language used.

Yes, I can believe this very easily.

[Tero]

Shall is useless. But use should and would where needed.

[FBM]

Shall is useless. But use should and would where needed.

I shall endeavor to persevere in this respect.

[MiM]

Shall is useless. But use should and would where needed.

Should and would, now you are awakening some really bad memories

[Tyrannical]

To me there seems to be a difference in usage between "Where shall we go to dinner" vs "Where will we go to dinner". When I use shall, I am asking for their opinion on where we should go, as opposed to asking them to predict the future.

[FBM]

To me there seems to be a difference in usage between "Where shall we go to dinner" vs "Where will we go to dinner". When I use shall, I am asking for their opinion on where we should go, as opposed to asking them to predict the future.

Ah. So things change a bit when we shift to the interrogative. That's good information.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I think "shall" is more of a "command", rather than the "forecast" of "will".

[Tyrannical]

To me there seems to be a difference in usage between "Where shall we go to dinner" vs "Where will we go to dinner". When I use shall, I am asking for their opinion on where we should go, as opposed to asking them to predict the future.

Ah. So things change a bit when we shift to the interrogative. That's good information.

I'm far from a grammer or spalling expert, and don't know if I'm right.

[FBM]

No worries. I'm just asking for native speakers' intuitive input here.

[Tyrannical]

It also seems unnatural to say "Shall you pass your test tomorrow?" instead of "Will you pass your test tomorrow?". But both "I shall" and "I will" seem to work as responses.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Some people like a little elegance to their language.

[Cormac]

Unless I was taking the piss, I'd never say "Shall we go". I'd say "Should we go". As for shall/will, I'd always say will.

Of course, "should" has a different meaning than shall and will...

[Bella Fortuna]

Bending someone to one's shall just doesn't have the same ring...