Guns Because

[Jason]

I bet 'do you think it should be against the law to commit murder with a gun?' would score even higher.

[Seth]

This bullshit, that there are no background checks at gun shows or for internet sales, IS A COMPLETE LIE.

Yes it is...sort of...Colorado passed a law a couple of years ago requiring that all gun sales at "gun shows," which is loosely defined as

12-26.1-106. Definitions



As used in this article, unless the context otherwise requires:

(1) "Collection" means a trade, barter, or in-kind exchange for one or more firearms.

(2) "Firearm" means any handgun, automatic, revolver, pistol, rifle, shotgun, or other instrument or device capable or intended to be capable of discharging bullets, cartridges, or other explosive charges.

(3) "Gun show" means the entire premises provided for an event or function, including but not limited to parking areas for the event or function, that is sponsored to facilitate, in whole or in part, the purchase, sale, offer for sale, or collection of firearms at which:

(a) twenty-five or more firearms are offered or exhibited for sale, transfer, or exchange; or

(b) not less than three gun show vendors exhibit, sell, offer for sale, transfer, or exchange firearms.

(4) "Gun show promoter" means a person who organizes or operates a gun show.

(5) "Gun show vendor" means any person who exhibits, sells, offers for sale, transfers, or exchanges, any firearm at a gun show, regardless of whether the person arranges with a gun show promoter for a fixed location from which to exhibit, sell, offer for sale, transfer, or exchange any firearm.

(6) "Licensed gun dealer" means any person who is a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or dealer licensed pursuant to 18 U.S.C. sec. 923, as amended, as a federally licensed firearms dealer.

So, three or more people who get together to trade or sell 25 or more firearms is a "gun show", even if it happens in your kitchen.

Article 26.1. Background Checks - Gun Shows

Current through 2012 First Extraordinary Session

§ 12-26.1-101. Background checks at gun shows - penalty

(1) Before a gun show vendor transfers or attempts to transfer a firearm at a gun show, he or she shall:
(a) require that a background check, in accordance with section 24-33.5-424, C.R.S., be conducted of the prospective transferee; and
(b) obtain approval of a transfer from the Colorado Bureau of Investigation after a background check has been requested by a licensed gun dealer, in accordance with section 24-33.5-424, C.R.S.
(2) A gun show promoter shall arrange for the services of one or more licensed gun dealers on the premises of the gun show to obtain the background checks required by this article.
(3) If any part of a firearm transaction takes place at a gun show, no firearm shall be transferred unless a background check has been obtained by a licensed gun dealer.
(4) Any person violating the provisions of this section commits a class 1 misdemeanor and shall be punished as provided in section 18-1.3-501, C.R.S.

Who here has actually bought a gun at a gun show or online? Because I have, both ways, and both ways, I have always had a background check done.

Seven states require background checks for all gun sales at gun shows including Colorado. The only "firearms" that can be "transferred" via the "internet" without a background check are "curios and relics" which federal law carefully defines. Since they are not "firearms" according to BATFE regulation, no background check is required for such arms. All other firearms, and I mean ALL other firearms may be PURCHASED via the Internet (so that statement is technically true) but cannot be DELIVERED to the buyer by mail or otherwise WITHOUT passing through an in-state (buyer's state) FFL to whom the firearm is shipped by the Internet vendor who must then do a NICS check on the transferee when he comes in to pick up the weapon. Some dealers charge as much as $50 for this service, and no FFL is REQUIRED to process such transfers, so if your local gun shop doesn't do transfers because they want you to buy from them, you're shit out of luck and have to find a cooperative dealer somewhere else in the state, which in some communities could be hundreds of miles away. But you MUST fill our a Form 4473 and have a NICS check to take POSSESSION of an "internet purchased firearm."

So, when these idiot pollsters ask the question, "Do you think there should be background checks at gun shows and for Internet sales... IT'S A LIE.

THERE ARE ALREADY BACKGROUND CHECKS FOR BOTH THOSE THINGS!

HELLO! WAKE UP! THAT POLL IS WORTHLESS. The pollsters, nor do the respondents, have any fucking clue what the reality of the situation actually is.

Wrong. The pollsters know exactly what they are doing, and they ask the questions to elicit the answers they want.

It's pathetic.

Why don't they just ask, "Do you think it should be against the law to commit murder?" I bet they'd get around 85-90% for that too.

Yup. Like I said, the devil's in the details. Yes, most people would, in a perfect world like everyone who buys a gun to have to have a background check. I would too. The problem is how you make such a system effective while respecting the privacy of gun owners and avoiding gun and gun owner registration.

And that's where the poll questions fall apart. They only ask a simplistic question to answer a simplistic problem when the actual problem, and any plan to fix things, is exceedingly complex.

Since the only way to make universal background checks work is to register ALL firearms and ALL owners so the government can keep track of who owns what gun, the proper question to ask is something along the lines of "If the only way that universal background checks can work is for all guns and gun owners to be registered with the federal government so that it can track which individuals have which guns, would you still favor a mandatory universal background check."

The numbers would change radically if honest questions were asked.

[Gallstones]

I already said what Seth said but I used fewer words.

I use an FFL holder who transfers for $10.00.



An example for the ignorant and paranoid.
I was gifted a hunting rifle by a friend who lives in a different state, this is how it went:
He took it to an FFL dealer who shipped it to my FFL dealer. He included copies of his picture ID in the package as requested by my FFL guy. When it arrives I go in, show picture ID, fill out the 4473, wait for the NICS phone check, pay the $10.00 and take my rifle home.

[Rum]

Another five to add to the 8000 plus.

http://news.sky.com/story/1081232/five- ... e-shooting

[Gallstones]

Uncle Sam's Misguided Children
https://www.facebook.com/USMCHELLHOUNDS ... ion=stream

There is an AWAKENING in the AMERICAN People realizing what is right and what is excessive. Since President Obama took office, there have been 3 mass shootings and 2 domestic terror attacks. How are we not causing an uproar? He can't keep us safe. He wants our guns, but like I pointed out 3 mass shootings and 2 terror attacks. Why the hell should we ALLOW ourselves to have our defenses weakened here? thousands of police officers, federal agents and national guardsmen locked down an entire metropolitan area for 17 hours looking for ONE man. And it wasn't even them who found the bastard, it was a homeowner leaving his house. A manhunt telling people you can come out now but be careful. But we are supposed to ban assault weapons? Why the hell would we do that? These terrorists had guns, and they did not get their guns through a gun shop or bought them at a Gun Show expo or trade. Why should the American People not have 30, 40 , 50, 100 round magazines? If that kid kicked down your door, what would you do, try going after him with a rolling pin? The police department knows better than anyone, a well armed law abiding citizen who is protecting his home helps defeat crime , makes their job much easier. A CIVILIAN , NOT A POLICE OFFICER CAUGHT the Suspect.. When the American People are out for blood the government can step aside and show the world, you fuck with us, we won't even intervene , the American people and their tenancy will find the bastard and bring him to justice dead or alive, take that to the bank. I blame our administration, I blame our leaders , I blame corrupt politicians who fat and happy let another terrorist happen in American soil, YES , THEY LET A TERRORIST ACT HAPPEN , because there is no one in the world with better intel on terrorist plans before they happened than the United States of America, IF NOT!! WHY THE HELL do we have the CIA , FBI , Secret Service ETC ETC ECT, if they can't even stop two pressure cookers????

[Rum]

That's actually pretty damn funny.

[Collector1337]

Another five to add to the 8000 plus.

http://news.sky.com/story/1081232/five- ... e-shooting

Any other deaths you want to cry for? Alcohol related deaths? Starvation? Beatings? Auto? Drugs? Medical Malpractice?

It's funny that only people killed by a gun seem important to you, or at least important enough for you to whine about.

People die. Get over it.

If you're any kind of man of science in the slightest, you should full well know how overpopulated the world is. 8000 isn't even a drop in the bucket. Get some fucking perspective.

[JimC]

Collector1337 wrote:

...People die. Get over it...

Empathy fail...

[Collector1337]

Collector1337 wrote:

...People die. Get over it...

Empathy fail...

When people close to me die, I don't whine and expect a whole country and its laws to change because of it.

Empathy has nothing to do with it.

Your emotional ploys are pathetic. You should come up with something new because it's getting tired.

Or, do you not actually have anything of substance to convince me with? Just emotion?

[Clinton Huxley]

If you're any kind of man of science in the slightest, you should full well know how overpopulated the world is. 8000 isn't even a drop in the bucket. Get some fucking perspective.

It's logic, Jim, but not as we know it.

[Rum]

Collector1337 wrote:

...People die. Get over it...

Empathy fail...

When people close to me die, I don't whine and expect a whole country and its laws to change because of it.

Empathy has nothing to do with it.

Your emotional ploys are pathetic. You should come up with something new because it's getting tired.

Or, do you not actually have anything of substance to convince me with? Just emotion?

Er..isn't this actually how laws are often made (and changed)..what a dumb thing to suggest.

[orpheus]

Collector1337 wrote:

...People die. Get over it...

Empathy fail...

When people close to me die, I don't whine and expect a whole country and its laws to change because of it.

Empathy has nothing to do with it.

Your emotional ploys are pathetic. You should come up with something new because it's getting tired.

Or, do you not actually have anything of substance to convince me with? Just emotion?

Er..isn't this actually how laws are often made (and changed)..what a dumb thing to suggest.

Yes, you're right, Rum.

[Gallstones]

BOSTON - National guard units seeking to confiscate a cache of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed on April 19th by elements of a para-military extremist faction. Military and law enforcement sources estimate that 72 were killed and more than 200 injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Speaking after the clash Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement. Gage blamed the extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against internal revenue offices. The governor, who described the group's organizers as "criminals," issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any individual who has interfered with the government's efforts to secure law and order. The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed wide-spread refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed assault weapons.

Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting in early this month between government and military leaders at which the governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms.

One government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out that "none of these people would have been killed had the extremists obeyed the law and turned over their weapons voluntarily." Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the government's plans. During a tense standoff in Lexington's town park, National Guard Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the right-wing extremists. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing exchange. Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces overmatched by the armed mob, ordered a retreat. Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and leading the attack against the government troops. Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large.

April 20, 1775

[Gallstones]

Ten Myths About Gun Control

MYTH 1:"The majority of Americans favor strict new additional federal gun controls."
Or how to skew polls

MYTH 2: "The only purpose of a handgun is to kill people."
There are an estimated 65-70 million privately owned handguns in the United States that are used for hunting, target shooting, protection of families and businesses, and other legitimate and lawful purposes.

MYTH 3:"Since a gun in a home is many times more likely to kill a family member than to stop a criminal, armed citizens are not a deterrent to crime."
Skewed study.

MYTH 4:"Honest citizens have nothing to fear from gun registration and licensing which will curb crime by disarming criminals."
Registration and licensing have no effect on crime, as criminals, by definition, do not obey laws. Indeed, a national survey of prisoners conducted by Wright and Rossi for the Department of Justice found that 82% agreed that "gun laws only affect law-abiding citizens; criminals will always be able to get guns."

MYTH 5: "Stiff `gun control' laws work as shown by the low crime rates in England and Japan, while U. S crime rates continue to soar."
All criminologists studying the firearms issue reject simple comparisons of violent crime among foreign countries. It is impossible to draw valid conclusions without taking into account differences in each nation's collection of crime data, and their political, cultural, racial, religious, and economic disparities. Such factors are not only hard to compare, they are rarely, if ever, taken into account by "gun control" proponents.

MYTH 6: "Most murders are argument-related `crimes of passion' against a relative, neighbor, friend or acquaintance. "
The vast majority of murders are committed by persons with long established patterns of violent criminal behavior. Acc ording to analyses by the U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency, the FBI, and the Chicago, New York City, and other police departments, about 70% of suspected murderers have criminal careers of long standing--as do nearly half their victims. FBI data show that roughly 47% of murderers are known to their victims.

MYTH 7:"Semi-automatic firearms have no legitimate sporting purpose, are the preferred weapon of choice of criminals, and should be banned."
Use of this myth by gun prohibitionists is predicated purely on pragmatism: whichever "buzzword" can produce the most anti-gun emotionalism--"Saturday Night Special," "assault weapons," and "plastic guns"--will be utilized in efforts to generate support for a ban on entire classes of firearms.

MYTH 8: "The righ t guaranteed under the Second Amendment is limited specifically to the arming of a `well-regulated Militia' that can be compared today to the National Guard."
The perception that the Second Amendment guarantees a "collective right" or a "right of states to form militias" rather than an individual right is a wholly inaccurate 20th-century invention. Historically, the term "militia" refers to the people at large, armed and ready to defend their homeland and their freedom with arms supplied by themselves (U.S. v. Miller, 1939). Federal law (Title 10, Section 311 of the U.S. Code)

Also see Washington DC v Heller

MYTH 9: "A person in a public place with a gun is looking for trouble."
When the concealed carry laws were passed and put into pract ice, the result was completely different from the hysterical claims of the gun prohibitionists. In Florida, since the concealed carry law was changed in 1987, the homicide rate has dropped 21%, while the national rate has risen 12%. Across the nation, sta tes with favorable concealed carry laws have a 33% lower homicide rate overall and 37% lower robbery rate than states that allow little or no concealed carry.

MYTH 10: "Gun control reduces crime."
No empirical study of the effectiveness of gun laws has shown any positive effect on crime. To the dismay of the prohibitionists, such studies have shown a negative effect. That is, in areas having greatest restrictions on private firearms ownership, crime rates are typically higher, because criminals are aware that their intended victims are less likely to have the means with which to defend themselves.

[Collector1337]

But, Gallstones!

Don't let facts get in the way of emotional reasoning!