Masturbation is forbidden for every Catholic

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Coito ergo sum
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Re: Masturbation is forbidden for every Catholic

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:10 pm

Ian wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:Mary was a slut.
This is my favorite pet theory to explain the advent of Christianity, by the way. Mary realized she was pregnant, but she and Joseph had not yet gotten jiggy, so she had to make up a tall tale lest she wind up in mortal danger as an adultress. Voila - a virgin birth.

This was also a question that got me in trouble with my Sunday School teachers as a kid. "But how do we know she was a virgin?" They did not appreciate questioning. And, thankfully, there was no discussion of a hymen inspection in class.
LOL -

I think she was made a virgin retroactively. When the myth arose that Christ was the Son of God and even the incarnation of God, the logic started flowing from there -- if Jesus is God, he has to be perfect. If he is perfect he could not have been born in sin. If he was not born in sin, the Mary must have been a pure, virginal maiden when God impregnated her.

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Re: Masturbation is forbidden for every Catholic

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:14 pm

Kristie wrote:
JimC wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Kristie wrote:Forgive me Father, for I have sinned. Hail Mary, Hail Mary, Hail Mary .
I can help with that, my child --

On your knees please -- If you do my penance, all will be well. :biggrin:
Blessed are those who come in the name of the lord...
:hehe:
...eat of my...errr...drink of my....

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Svartalf
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Re: Masturbation is forbidden for every Catholic

Post by Svartalf » Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:52 pm

eat of my sausage and drink of my milk
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Animavore
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Re: Masturbation is forbidden for every Catholic

Post by Animavore » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:07 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Ian wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:Mary was a slut.
This is my favorite pet theory to explain the advent of Christianity, by the way. Mary realized she was pregnant, but she and Joseph had not yet gotten jiggy, so she had to make up a tall tale lest she wind up in mortal danger as an adultress. Voila - a virgin birth.

This was also a question that got me in trouble with my Sunday School teachers as a kid. "But how do we know she was a virgin?" They did not appreciate questioning. And, thankfully, there was no discussion of a hymen inspection in class.
LOL -

I think she was made a virgin retroactively. When the myth arose that Christ was the Son of God and even the incarnation of God, the logic started flowing from there -- if Jesus is God, he has to be perfect. If he is perfect he could not have been born in sin. If he was not born in sin, the Mary must have been a pure, virginal maiden when God impregnated her.
Or...
Animavore wrote: Or, alternatively, it was made up well after the fact to fulfil an Old Testament prophecy (Isiah something)[Isaiah 7.14, see below]. We don't see it in the earliest gospel, Mark, or in the early writings of Paul. In fact in Mark Mary doesn't seem to know who Jesus is (ie. the son of God) and at one stage she and Jesus' brothers, thinking he'd gone mad, try to take him out of public view.
It's only in Matthew and Luke he's said to be born of virgin and only Luke she's told who he is.
Further reading here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_7:14
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Re: Masturbation is forbidden for every Catholic

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:45 pm

The problem with Isaiah 7 being seen as prophesizing Jesus is that it, well, doesn't prophesy Jesus.

It says nothing of Jesus, or virgin births. It says a maiden will give birth to a son called Immanuel. The Gospel of Matthew refers to the Isaiah passage, but the passage in Isaiah is referring to the tribe of Judah being saved from invasion by Syria and Israel. It doesn't refer to any son of God or virgins giving births to God, or anything like that.

It sounds to me as if the writer of Matthew -- written in Greek -- was working with a copy of the Torah, and found the closest thing he could find to a prediction that Jesus would come. However, Isaiah does not say when that savior will come, and when Jesus is born he didn't come to save Judah from Syria and Israel, which is what Isaiah is talking about.

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths folks go to twist language to say something it doesn't actually say. And, the Christians simply gloss over the textual problems or just accept the applied meaning because it is in accord with what they've been taught their whole lives. Rarely do you see Christians say -- "but...it doesn't say Jesus will be born of a virgin and will be the son of God (or god incarnate)....it says that a king will be born of a maiden to save Judah from outside invasion and his name will be Immanuel." LOL.

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Re: Masturbation is forbidden for every Catholic

Post by Svartalf » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:02 pm

Not to mention that less than 50 years after Jesus' death, Palestine became a no Jews' land after the revolt and the sack of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple by Titus... so much for being saved from foreign powers.
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Re: Masturbation is forbidden for every Catholic

Post by Animavore » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:02 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:The problem with Isaiah 7 being seen as prophesizing Jesus is that it, well, doesn't prophesy Jesus.

It says nothing of Jesus, or virgin births. It says a maiden will give birth to a son called Immanuel. The Gospel of Matthew refers to the Isaiah passage, but the passage in Isaiah is referring to the tribe of Judah being saved from invasion by Syria and Israel. It doesn't refer to any son of God or virgins giving births to God, or anything like that.

It sounds to me as if the writer of Matthew -- written in Greek -- was working with a copy of the Torah, and found the closest thing he could find to a prediction that Jesus would come. However, Isaiah does not say when that savior will come, and when Jesus is born he didn't come to save Judah from Syria and Israel, which is what Isaiah is talking about.

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths folks go to twist language to say something it doesn't actually say. And, the Christians simply gloss over the textual problems or just accept the applied meaning because it is in accord with what they've been taught their whole lives. Rarely do you see Christians say -- "but...it doesn't say Jesus will be born of a virgin and will be the son of God (or god incarnate)....it says that a king will be born of a maiden to save Judah from outside invasion and his name will be Immanuel." LOL.
Yeah. It's pathetic. I've been listening to a series of 24 lectures (on 13) by Bart Ehrman the last few days. The Rabbit hole goes quite deep. Here's a juicy one.

In John 3.3 (KJV) Jesus says to Nicodemus, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Nicodemus is confused and asks how a grown man can be born again? "...
an he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? "
Jesus explains that no, he means, "[John 3.5]...Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[3:6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[3:7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

Now in Greek it makes sense that Nicodemus was confused because the word meaning (anagegennemenoy) "born again" also means "from above" (on high). But Jesus in this context goes on to explain that he meant the latter. Which puts Born Again Christians in a pickle, how and ever...

This becomes implausible when you translated it to Aramaic, the language these guys would actually of spoken, because in that language "born again" and "from above" use two completely different words making it unlikely this conversation actually happened or happened as written.
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Re: Masturbation is forbidden for every Catholic

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:38 pm

Svartalf wrote:Not to mention that less than 50 years after Jesus' death, Palestine became a no Jews' land after the revolt and the sack of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple by Titus... so much for being saved from foreign powers.

This isn't true, as the Jewish Pharisee movement survived and made peace with Rome, and Jews lived in Judea in significant numbers. There were Jewish revolts in the 2nd century -- Kitos War -- Bar Kochba Revolt, etc. In the late 2nd century, Jewish populations were mainly in Galilee, but they were still there, obviously. The Romans kept razing their towns and eventually banned them from Jerusalem for a while when they built a Temple to Jupiter on the site of the Temple Mount. The Romans massacred them at a pretty high clip, but the Jews remained.

Under the Byzantines, Jerusalem was a Christian city, and Jews were still banned from living there, but there were Jews still in Judea and the Holy Land in large enough numbers to have revolts against the Byzantines in the 4th century. In the late 4th century, the Byzantine emperor relaxed the harsh anti-Jew laws and allowed them to move back to Jerusalem and rebuild parts of it.

The Jews probably constituted the majority of the population of Palestine until well into the 4th century -- until Constantine converted the Christianity. After the collapse of the western Roman empire, a huge migration of Christians to the holy land occurred, and reduced the Jewish population to about 15% of the population. There were again anti-Jew laws and taxes imposed.

In the 5th Century Empress Eudocia relaxed the rules again and formally ended the Jewish exile from Jerusalem. There were more revolts by Jews against the Byzantines, on into the 7th century.

At the time of the Arab conquest the majority of the population was Jewish or Samaritan. That was in like 640 AD, give or take. There were plenty of Jews living there throughout the next couple of hundred years.

The Jews took a population hit during the Crusades, but then there was a resurgence of Jewish population in the 13th and 14th centuries. And Jews lived there in significant populations during Ottoman rule until 1917.

Then, of course, we have the post-WW1 French and British Mandates for Palestine, and the place was carved up into States for the first time -- we got Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Transjordan, etc., and of course, Israel. But, Jews were there the whole time, and in the 1940s when the lines were drawn on a Jewish state, it was Gerrymandered to include the mainly Jewish inhabited territory.

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Re: Masturbation is forbidden for every Catholic

Post by Ian » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:04 pm

I was joking about Mary coming up with an excuse. If Jesus existed at all, he was Joseph's kid. The "virgin birth" thing was no doubt invented many years after the fact.

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