"Democracy" derail from "My new toy" thread...

[pErvinalia]

"Success"? Lol.

[MrJonno]

Main definition of a successful war (as opposed to battle) is you get peace at the end of it.
Peace in Iraq hmmm

[pErvinalia]

I think Coito's definition of success is "Kicked some arse".

[Coito ergo sum]

I think Coito's definition of success is "Kicked some arse".

Success in a war:

Defeat the enemy. Check. Buy any measure, how did the Americans, Brits, etc. lose to Hussein's forces?

That isn't some odd definition of military success. That's the traditional definition. Those applying the weird definition are you folks who claim that the US lost or that the war was "unwinnable."

The US/Brits, etc. took over and occupied Iraq. If you do that, then you've won the war. Now, if they couldn't occupy Iraq, then you'd have a point.

After the 2003 invasion which utterly destroyed the Hussein regime, and started the occupation, we had an insurgency. However, this too was ultimately won. Now, the insurgency is fairly well handled. The US and other coalition countries have withdrawn almost all their forces. There is no more occupation, and the Iraqi government is now a functioning parliamentary democracy.

Yes, that sounds like a win.

[pErvinalia]

You said "success". I was talking about that, not "win". I agree, you won the war. But it's been a fucking disaster. Not successful in the slightest.

[Coito ergo sum]

You said "success". I was talking about that, not "win". I agree, you won the war. But it's been a fucking disaster. Not successful in the slightest.

On what basis?

1. Hussein regime gone -- success
2. Iraq de-Baathified -- success
3. Functioning parliamentary democracy created -- success
4. Iraq no longer a rogue state with rattling sabres
5. The US/UK have a better strategic position vis-a-vis Syria and Iran.

Sounds pretty good. Success doesn't mean perfection, of course. But, if you want to suggest that Obama couldn't finish the job and bring on a successful end to the US occupation, then have at it.

[pErvinalia]

Home for terrorism. Hundreds of thousands dead as a consequence of the war. Thousands of US troops dead for a lie. It was a massive disaster.

[Coito ergo sum]

Home for terrorism. Hundreds of thousands dead as a consequence of the war. Thousands of US troops dead for a lie. It was a massive disaster.

Evidence that Iraq is a "home" for terrorism? _________________

A massive disaster? Come on. Silliness.

[pErvinalia]

No, not silliness. Just a difference of opinion. Surely you can handle that?

[Clinton Huxley]

No, not silliness. Just a difference of opinion. Surely you can handle that?

Have you never met CES?!?

[Coito ergo sum]

No, not silliness. Just a difference of opinion. Surely you can handle that?

Some opinions are silly.

[pErvinalia]

Quite.

[sandinista]

Cue sandinista to tell me I'm living in a centrist's fools paradise...

Which will reassure me I'm on the right track...

and believe me, whenever you call me an "extremist" I am reassured that I am on the right track as well.

[Blind groper]

I don't agree with those numbers, because dying during a war is not the same as being a casualty of the war.

However, in any case, it has nothing to do with whether the US won, which the US and the coalition allies clearly did -- the invasion, the aftermath, the rebuilding -- all successful.

Most deaths during wartime are not a direct consequence of fighting. Disease, for example, always kills far more people than bullets. But those deaths are still a consequence of the war in that they would not have happened if the war did not happen.

The 'victory' won by the USA was problematic, since the 'enemy' is still fighting, albeit against the government the USA installed, rather than the USA itself.

The other thing that makes the 'victory' of the Pyrrhic kind, is that before there was little or no Al Qaeda presence. Afterwards, Iraq became a major recruiting site for membership.

[FBM]

aspire1670, this is a reminder that this post contains language that is against the Play Nice rule. Continuing to post such content could result in a warning or suspension, so please play nice. Thank you.