I don't believe in god...but..

[Rum]

The tradition of ancestor worship was still very common when I lived in Hong Kong and since more liberal laws on religion were introduced in China, has made a bit of a comeback there. They were always a bit vague about the 'spirit' of their ancestors and it didn't seem very important. What they did instead very often was go to their graves, get out the bones, which were stored in a pot after the flesh had rotted, polish them and then have a picnic as if the ancestors were there too. Sometimes they would even take paper food and gifts which they would burn for the use of the dead relations. Very much about the needs of the living I would say and not actually that religious or superstitious in a way.

[Svartalf]

I don't believe in a god, or I'd have to make destroying that bastard and all worship of it the goal of my life.

[Audley Strange]

The tradition of ancestor worship was still very common when I lived in Hong Kong and since more liberal laws on religion were introduced in China, has made a bit of a comeback there. They were always a bit vague about the 'spirit' of their ancestors and it didn't seem very important. What they did instead very often was go to their graves, get out the bones, which were stored in a pot after the flesh had rotted, polish them and then have a picnic as if the ancestors were there too. Sometimes they would even take paper food and gifts which they would burn for the use of the dead relations. Very much about the needs of the living I would say and not actually that religious or superstitious in a way.

It seems to me very superstitious, symbols totems and sacrifices, but I think the "woo" that we all speak of is either a misunderstanding of practical folk psychologies or exploitation of them by for want of a better term black magicians. It is my contention that magic does exist, that it is perfectly normal, that is is not supernatural and that it underpins a lot of who we are and what we do. I think we live in two worlds, that of the physical exterior domain and the domain of the imagination, of language and symbol. It is probably obvious to some here that literacy in a culture of illiterates is power, that spells and grimoires are spelling and grammar and that by training oneself in certain techniques the exterior physical world seems to change in front of ones eyes.

Ever been entranced by a movie? Ever lost yourself so completely in reading a book that the sense of self dissolves until you check yourself? Ever been terrified or excited by a game? You've been subjected to the powers of magic, of imagination and symbol use.

The problem seems to me to be that people deny that their imagination has been affected and that their brain is the cause of these changes, that they mistake these interior subjective phenomena for exterior objective phenomena. The kingdom of heaven is within. Not without. The godhead is our highest aspiration of ourselves, the perfected man, not some desert djinn that actually created the physical universe.

It does seem to me that the history of complex culture seems to go hand in hand with the history of the written word and I hope we do not through the baby out with the bathwater just because black magicians have traditionally been the ones exploiting these techniques.

[Audley Strange]

The tradition of ancestor worship was still very common when I lived in Hong Kong and since more liberal laws on religion were introduced in China, has made a bit of a comeback there. They were always a bit vague about the 'spirit' of their ancestors and it didn't seem very important. What they did instead very often was go to their graves, get out the bones, which were stored in a pot after the flesh had rotted, polish them and then have a picnic as if the ancestors were there too. Sometimes they would even take paper food and gifts which they would burn for the use of the dead relations. Very much about the needs of the living I would say and not actually that religious or superstitious in a way.

It seems to me very superstitious, symbols totems and sacrifices, but I think the "woo" that we all speak of is either a misunderstanding of practical folk psychologies or exploitation of them by for want of a better term black magicians. It is my contention that magic does exist, that it is perfectly normal, that is is not supernatural and that it underpins a lot of who we are and what we do. I think we live in two worlds, that of the physical exterior domain and the domain of the imagination, of language and symbol. It is probably obvious to some here that literacy in a culture of illiterates is power, that spells and grimoires are spelling and grammar and that by training oneself in certain techniques the exterior physical world seems to change in front of ones eyes.

Ever been entranced by a movie? Ever lost yourself so completely in reading a book that the sense of self dissolves until you check yourself? Ever been terrified or excited by a game? You've been subjected to the powers of magic, of imagination and symbol use.

The problem seems to me to be that people deny that their imagination has been affected and that their brain is the cause of these changes, that they mistake these interior subjective phenomena for exterior objective phenomena. The kingdom of heaven is within. Not without. The godhead is our highest aspiration of ourselves, the perfected man, not some desert djinn that actually created the physical universe.

It does seem to me that the history of complex culture seems to go hand in hand with the history of the written word and I hope we do not through the baby out with the bathwater just because black magicians have traditionally been the ones exploiting these techniques.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Memories have a power, they seem almost to have an existence of their own. In a tribal society, a collective memory of dead ancestors, talked about around the fire at night would lend itself to a quite understandable picture of a spirit existence.

And was convenient that the dead ancestors say whatever helped the speaker.

[DaveDodo007]

I was talking to an old acquaintance a few days ago. Their father died about three years ago as it happens. We were talking about religion and I assumed this person was probably an atheist - certainly an agnostic.

I said in passing that over recent years I had become something of a rabid atheist compared to the flip flopping I used to do over the issue. The acquaintance replied that they didn't believe in god either but they believed the spirit of their father lived on somewhere..

I didn't tell them to shut the fuck up if you are wondering, but I had to stop myself...

There is a time and place for everything and even a rabid atheist like me knows when to shut the fuck up.

How long is long enough? Or do you never discuss it with someone whose parent has died?

I would give it a least a month.

[JimC]

Memories have a power, they seem almost to have an existence of their own. In a tribal society, a collective memory of dead ancestors, talked about around the fire at night would lend itself to a quite understandable picture of a spirit existence.

And was convenient that the dead ancestors say whatever helped the speaker.

And I'm sure that happened to an extent, and that those with a touch of machiavelli were able to manipulate tribal sentiments about the spirit world to prop up their own positions...

And so it ever was, and ever will be...

[Blind groper]

Whaddayamean 'to an extent?'

The whole history of religion is redolent with examples of the priestly class gaining wealth and power through such claims.

I like the following statement.

"There was a time when religion was respected. When people listened to the priests, and went to their church every Sunday. When prayer was common, and God was worshiped with a true spirit. When unbelievers were scarce, and believers took solace together. That time was called the Dark Ages."