Untold History of the United States

[FBM]

Ever seen "Siege of Firebase Gloria"?

No, is it good?

It's not good because of the acting or the dialog, that's for sure. But it's oddly good, nevertheless.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Ever seen "Siege of Firebase Gloria"?

No, is it good?

It's not good because of the acting or the dialog, that's for sure. But it's oddly good, nevertheless.

Much kick ass. And I knew some of the VC in that movie.

[Seabass]

But so is a portrayal of the US as a white-hatted warrior for truth, justice and democracy, whose motivations are as pure as the driven snow. That ideological position has had a lot of air play over the years...

Has it had a lot of air play? Maybe in the '60s. Contemporary historical accounts tend to show the insanity on both sides.

By air play, I mean by mainstream media, and by popular culture, as portrayed in many films and TV series. Serious political commentators and historians would not be pushing it, but in this era of sound bites and shallow media commentary, their impact is minimal.

Do you have some examples?

Every Vietnam war movie ever made is anti war. MASH was anti war. Strangelove was anti war. Fail-safe was anti-war. The Tom Clancy cold war movies (Hunt for Red October, etc) did not portray either side as good or evil. Che movies, WarGames, The Good Shepherd, etc, etc...

The closest to what you describe that I can think of would be maybe Red Dawn. Lol.

The more I think about it, the more it seems American Cold War movies and TV overwhelmingly tend to portray the U.S. government and CIA in a rather negative light.

the short list

1. Red Dawn
2. The Day After
3. War Games
4. Firefox
5. Rambo III
6. Red Scorpion
7. Top Gun
8. Rocky IV
9. Invasion USA
10. Spies Like Us

You're really reaching with these.

Spies Like Us was a comedy.
Rocky IV was a boxing movie. There have been 5 Rocky movies, one of his opponents happens to have been Russian; most of his opponents were Americans.
Top Gun was about fighter pilots, not war.
War Games was about a computer malfunction.
The Day After was about a nuclear war; it just happens to be told from an American perspective.
I haven't seen Red Scorpion or Rambo III.



If this list is supposed to convince me that American movies routinely portray the U.S. as "a white-hatted warrior for truth, justice and democracy, whose motivations are as pure as the driven snow", forgive me, but I'm not convinced.


Honestly, I'm not sure what the point of this derail is anyway. I thought we were talking about documentaries. I don't know why Jim brought TV and film into it. I really don't care about historical accuracy in fiction.

[Seabass]

In other words "we do bad things, but it's for the greater good".

Yah that tends to be the propaganda line. The main thing US propagandists do is play with omission. Instead of flat out lying, which, of course is also done, they tend to just selectively cherry pick historical events that make them look good and leave the ones that make them look bad out. As for people trying to make out like this doc is biased or slanted or whatever, I imagine that just comes from their preconceived, rooted ideological biases. I'm sure this doc makes a lot of people angry, as can be seen by this thread, but that's generally just because sometimes the truth hurts, especially when the truth is made available to a wider public.

Well, most of the events in Untold History can be found other Cold War documentaries. The difference is, most Cold War documentaries show evils done by both sides, whereas Untold History shows evils done by the U.S. and omits or de-emphasizes U.S.S.R.'s bad deeds. Oliver Stone is the one doing the cherry picking.

[JimC]

Seabass wrote:

Honestly, I'm not sure what the point of this derail is anyway. I thought we were talking about documentaries. I don't know why Jim brought TV and film into it. I really don't care about historical accuracy in fiction.

Well, basically because you (probably rightly) lambasted Stone's documentary for being very one-sided in its anti-American bias. I'm simply pointing out that there exists a powerful, cultural portrayal in the opposite direction - not for the literati, but in terms of a red-neck view of the world, the whole "America, love it or leave it" thing. For a very large segment of the American public, the US is wearing the white hat, and always has been...

[sandinista]

If this list is supposed to convince me that American movies routinely portray the U.S. as "a white-hatted warrior for truth, justice and democracy, whose motivations are as pure as the driven snow", forgive me, but I'm not convinced.

If your not convinced WITHOUT needing a list nothing will convince you.

Well, most of the events in Untold History can be found other Cold War documentaries. The difference is, most Cold War documentaries show evils done by both sides, whereas Untold History shows evils done by the U.S. and omits or de-emphasizes U.S.S.R.'s bad deeds. Oliver Stone is the one doing the cherry picking.

Really ? You don't think EVERY doc EVER MADE cherry picks information? Tell me of the epic documentary which covers everything from every angle. I've read volumes of books and am still learning things...here I am "debating"...this is not debating...someone who is shocked and dismayed at the notion that america perceives itself as the white-hatted warrior for truth, justice and democracy, whose motivations are as pure as the driven snow. I mean, sure play devils advocate for whatever reason, boredom, curiosity at reactions, etc but you can play that game with someone else.

the whole "America, love it or leave it" thing. For a very large segment of the American public, the US is wearing the white hat, and always has been...

whaa? I've never heard of such a thing.

[MrJonno]

Modern decent films tend to not to have people as black and white good and evil as firstly its not reaslistic and secondary it makes a pretty dull film. Even comic book films tend to at least and try and make the audiences have at least some empathy with the baddies.

Older movies were generally goodies (normally Americans) versus baddies , the better films were the exception (Tora,Tora, Tora portrays the Japanese as at least human)

[Seabass]

Seabass wrote:

Honestly, I'm not sure what the point of this derail is anyway. I thought we were talking about documentaries. I don't know why Jim brought TV and film into it. I really don't care about historical accuracy in fiction.

Well, basically because you (probably rightly) lambasted Stone's documentary for being very one-sided in its anti-American bias. I'm simply pointing out that there exists a powerful, cultural portrayal in the opposite direction - not for the literati, but in terms of a red-neck view of the world, the whole "America, love it or leave it" thing. For a very large segment of the American public, the US is wearing the white hat, and always has been...

Ok, first we were talking about accuracy in historical documentaries. Then you brought movies and TV in to the discussion. Now you're talking about culture.

Maybe you should start another thread if you want to have a general discussion about how shitty American culture is.

Then again, there are already dozens of those, so maybe I'll just go watch Rambo III...

[JimC]

Seabass wrote:

Honestly, I'm not sure what the point of this derail is anyway. I thought we were talking about documentaries. I don't know why Jim brought TV and film into it. I really don't care about historical accuracy in fiction.

Well, basically because you (probably rightly) lambasted Stone's documentary for being very one-sided in its anti-American bias. I'm simply pointing out that there exists a powerful, cultural portrayal in the opposite direction - not for the literati, but in terms of a red-neck view of the world, the whole "America, love it or leave it" thing. For a very large segment of the American public, the US is wearing the white hat, and always has been...

Ok, first we were talking about accuracy in historical documentaries. Then you brought movies and TV in to the discussion. Now you're talking about culture.

Maybe you should start another thread if you want to have a general discussion about how shitty American culture is.

Then again, there are already dozens of those, so maybe I'll just go watch Rambo III...

Rather defensive, there...

If you had read my posts, I am talking about realistic views, not absurdly polarised caricatures. Stone's view seems to be at one end of a scale, giving America the big thumbs down. Your reply seems to suggest you prefer to remain at the other end...

[pErvinalia]

It's a comparison. Given Oliver Stone's chops in this regard, he is about on the same level as Brad Meltzer and I have no doubt that Stone's series is as accurate as Meltzer's

what are you talking about? Given Stone's chops in this regard? What regard? Making documentaries? What docs has he made that would make you say that? Meltzer? Who the fuck is that? You make less sense with each post you make.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

This is why the ignore feature is so nice.

[pErvinalia]

I think Sandi does some of the best put downs on the net! I enjoy reading them.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I think Sandi does some of the best put downs on the net! I enjoy reading them.

Coherency doesn't count for much, eh?

[sandinista]

I don't need no "ignore" button. I have another method...simply skip the nonsense. Seems just as easy. zilla speaking of Coherency? See, if I ignored him I would have missed that gem

[Gawdzilla Sama]