Libertarianism

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pErvinalia
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:02 am

Umm, physician, heal thyself! There is no justification the ridiculous "natural rights" argument. That shit went out of serious favour back in the 17 and 18 hundreds.
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:04 am

Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:
Beatsong wrote:
Seth wrote:This is entirely unlike insane, infantile, malformed Liberal and Progressive personalities (which includes socialists) that think only of themselves and how they can take from others to satisfy their own needs and who utterly fail to recognize, acknowledge or accept that each individual is responsible for their own choices, actions and the consequences of them, and that no one else may be compelled to suffer the negative consequences of the bad choices and/or actions of another.

Yes they may. People are compelled to suffer such consequences all the time. That's a simple fact that can be easily observed in human life all over the world.

You're just making stuff up now.
Actually, I got it from a highly-qualified forensic psychiatrist who analyzed the liberal mind and made the diagnosis.
God, not that shit again. Libertarianism is a human-psychology-denying ideology.
Just because you don't like the diagnosis of Dr. Lyle H. Rossiter, Jr., a board-certified psychiatrist doesn't mean his diagnosis is wrong.
The whole fucking discipline of psychology is of no doubt that humans are NOT rational actors. Libertarianism is simply based on WRONG premises. There's also no such thing as free-will. ALL decisions are a result of genetics + past environmental influences.
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"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
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"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Beatsong » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:16 am

Seth wrote:My exercise of my rights may be regulated to prevent me from initiating force or fraud on another, but government may not visit upon me the consequences of someone else's bad behavior.
Yes it may. Governments, in practice, do that all the time.
If you drive drunk and kill someone, society cannot legitimately seize MY car on the theory that if I don't have a car I can't drive drunk.
Yes they can. Societies do that all the time.

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Re: Libertarianism

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:16 am

Seth wrote:
At present you are right, but in the past I have had far greater than average wealth. I've lived on both sides of the divide. I have no desire to play childish bullying games. I believe in a more pure form of democracy where peoples' votes, not their wallets matter to public policy.
You do realize that money is equal to speech don't you?
Well, in a fashion it can be. But the point is - how is that fair in a supposed democracy of 1 person = 1 vote? Why should someone with a billion dollars have 10,000 times the effective votes of someone with $100,000? The amount of money you have shouldn't give you more influence over the political process. The political process in a democracy is supposed to be governed by the principle of 1 person = 1 vote.
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Seth » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:17 am

rEvolutionist wrote:
The whole fucking discipline of psychology is of no doubt that humans are NOT rational actors. Libertarianism is simply based on WRONG premises. There's also no such thing as free-will. ALL decisions are a result of genetics + past environmental influences.
You have no clue whatever about what Libertarianism is based on. You've concocted a strawman philosophy that you claim represents Libertarianism, except that it doesn't.

And, we may all be crazy, but Liberals are far more crazy than Libertarians or almost anyone else. Their mental and emotional maturity stopped at about four years of age and they've never advanced beyond that infantile stage.
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Beatsong » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:17 am

Seth wrote:
Beatsong wrote:
Seth wrote:This is entirely unlike insane, infantile, malformed Liberal and Progressive personalities (which includes socialists) that think only of themselves and how they can take from others to satisfy their own needs and who utterly fail to recognize, acknowledge or accept that each individual is responsible for their own choices, actions and the consequences of them, and that no one else may be compelled to suffer the negative consequences of the bad choices and/or actions of another.

Yes they may. People are compelled to suffer such consequences all the time. That's a simple fact that can be easily observed in human life all over the world.

You're just making stuff up now.
Actually, I got it from a highly-qualified forensic psychiatrist who analyzed the liberal mind and made the diagnosis.
That doesn't make any sense in relation to the point it follows.

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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Seth » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:18 am

Beatsong wrote:
Seth wrote:My exercise of my rights may be regulated to prevent me from initiating force or fraud on another, but government may not visit upon me the consequences of someone else's bad behavior.
Yes it may. Governments, in practice, do that all the time.
How so?
If you drive drunk and kill someone, society cannot legitimately seize MY car on the theory that if I don't have a car I can't drive drunk.
Yes they can. Societies do that all the time.
Examples please...?
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Libertarianism

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:21 am

Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
The whole fucking discipline of psychology is of no doubt that humans are NOT rational actors. Libertarianism is simply based on WRONG premises. There's also no such thing as free-will. ALL decisions are a result of genetics + past environmental influences.
You have no clue whatever about what Libertarianism is based on. You've concocted a strawman philosophy that you claim represents Libertarianism, except that it doesn't.
What a load of crap. Are you seriously going to tell me that Libertarian (and neo-liberal) economic theory isn't based on the concept of the "rational actor"? All the millions of words you have written on this subject in the past 5 years or so that i've been engaged with you state this very same principle. You've outright stated it before. We've argued about the concept of the "rational actor" before. Stop playing games. Have the courage to stand up to your convictions. Oh, and I have Milton Friedman on the phone. He wants a word with you.
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"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

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Re: Libertarianism

Post by MrJonno » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:23 am

You still don't get it. My exercise of my rights may be regulated to prevent me from initiating force or fraud on another, but government may not visit upon me the consequences of someone else's bad behavior.

If you drive drunk and kill someone, society cannot legitimately seize MY car on the theory that if I don't have a car I can't drive drunk.

Actually if someone else drives drunk and kills someone society as a whole can decide cars are too dangerous and seize all of them.
Havent done it on cars as the utility has been decided to be too high , but society makes similar decisions like that all the time.
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!

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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Seth » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:23 am

rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:
At present you are right, but in the past I have had far greater than average wealth. I've lived on both sides of the divide. I have no desire to play childish bullying games. I believe in a more pure form of democracy where peoples' votes, not their wallets matter to public policy.
You do realize that money is equal to speech don't you?
Well, in a fashion it can be. But the point is - how is that fair in a supposed democracy of 1 person = 1 vote? Why should someone with a billion dollars have 10,000 times the effective votes of someone with $100,000? The amount of money you have shouldn't give you more influence over the political process. The political process in a democracy is supposed to be governed by the principle of 1 person = 1 vote.
The amount of money one spends on a campaign doesn't give the donor more than one vote per person, it merely persuades more people to vote as the donor is suggesting they vote.

Your complaint assumes that voters are idiots and the only thing they consider is how glitzy the ad is and how often they see it.

Of course, in many cases you are exactly right, voters are too stupid to be allowed to vote, but it's still one vote per person.

I suspect the KKK could spend a trillion dollars trying to elect a known and unapologetic racist KKK Grand Dragon to the presidency and it wouldn't get them anywhere at all.

I think you're bitching because causes that you don't favor have donors that allow the representatives of the cause to spread their message more widely than you can. Pure jealousy and envy.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Seth » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:25 am

MrJonno wrote:
You still don't get it. My exercise of my rights may be regulated to prevent me from initiating force or fraud on another, but government may not visit upon me the consequences of someone else's bad behavior.

If you drive drunk and kill someone, society cannot legitimately seize MY car on the theory that if I don't have a car I can't drive drunk.

Actually if someone else drives drunk and kills someone society as a whole can decide cars are too dangerous and seize all of them.
Havent done it on cars as the utility has been decided to be too high , but society makes similar decisions like that all the time.
Not legitimately it can't. Of course given enough power and a weak enough citizenry, "government" (read: despots and tyrants) CAN do just about anything, like kill 100 million people in the name of Communism as Mao and Stalin did.

That doesn't mean it's a legitimate or moral act on the part of the society.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Libertarianism

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:28 am

Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:
At present you are right, but in the past I have had far greater than average wealth. I've lived on both sides of the divide. I have no desire to play childish bullying games. I believe in a more pure form of democracy where peoples' votes, not their wallets matter to public policy.
You do realize that money is equal to speech don't you?
Well, in a fashion it can be. But the point is - how is that fair in a supposed democracy of 1 person = 1 vote? Why should someone with a billion dollars have 10,000 times the effective votes of someone with $100,000? The amount of money you have shouldn't give you more influence over the political process. The political process in a democracy is supposed to be governed by the principle of 1 person = 1 vote.
The amount of money one spends on a campaign doesn't give the donor more than one vote per person, it merely persuades more people to vote as the donor is suggesting they vote.

Your complaint assumes that voters are idiots and the only thing they consider is how glitzy the ad is and how often they see it.
BAZINGA! "Rational actor" guff, right there! Actually, if you understood human psychology, you would know that people don't take decisions that are wholly rational, and they ARE terribly influenced by all sorts of environmental variables.

As I said, Libertarianism is a science denying ideology. Throw in "natural rights" guff, and it's not much different from catholicism.
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"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

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Re: Libertarianism

Post by MrJonno » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:29 am

Don't need to be a tyrant, political party says we will scrap all personal cars if we get elected, they get elected cars get scrapped
Many drugs are banned on that basis ( I don't believe they should be but elected governments have the authority to do so).

Society gets to decide what is legitimate or moral you don't
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!

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Re: Libertarianism

Post by MrJonno » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:31 am

I suspect the KKK could spend a trillion dollars trying to elect a known and unapologetic racist KKK Grand Dragon to the presidency and it wouldn't get them anywhere at all.
I suspect you would end up with the KKK running the Whitehouse. Spend enough money and you get can most people to do most things
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!

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Re: Libertarianism

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:33 am

MrJonno wrote:Don't need to be a tyrant, political party says we will scrap all personal cars if we get elected, they get elected cars get scrapped
Many drugs are banned on that basis ( I don't believe they should be but elected governments have the authority to do so).

Society gets to decide what is legitimate or moral you don't
This is why we never get anywhere in these debates, because Seth believes that there is a set of objective morals floating out there in nature somewhere.

Actually, I wonder if he has read Sam Harris' Moral Landscape and what he thinks of it. It tries to argue that there is an objective(ish) basis for morals. But he's a liberal (i.e. MARXIZT!!1!), so I guess Seth would have to dismiss what he says on that basis alone.
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"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

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