27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

[Gallstones]

What's an 'oater'?

A version of a granola who confines his/her grainivorism to oats.

[Gallstones]

Seth has been typing his little head off, defensive as ever, as paranoid people do when their ideologies once again have an ugly head-on collision with reality.

That's OK, I guess somebody from the loony fringe has to. The NRA has been operating on radio silence all weekend. Not one of the 31 pro-gun Senators asked to appear on Meet the Press dared to go on. And that is to be expected. These people aren't dumb: they all know the sort of public reaction they will get if they actually open their mouths. Guys like Seth, though, are free come to the internet and rant about how those elementary school teachers should've been packing heat, or how us liberals are taking advantage of this situation to come and take his guns. Some people from that fringe have to rant, even if their leaders are prudently hiding and not answering the phone.

It is also possible that they are unwilling to submit themselves to a fruitless public lambasting and that having this conversation right now might not be good timing. They might also have declined out of sensitivity. They might want to be sure of their facts before going on the public media so to avoid any appearance of shooting their mouths off and damaging their positions. They might want to have a think about just what their positions are now before being subject to the media to defend strawmen.

There are explanations other than cowardice.

[Gallstones]

If we could pass a law requiring registration of all firearms, without confiscating them, that wouldn't do much to curb the violence, I think. The guns used at that elementary school were registered. And certain people would see mandatory registration as the first step towards eventual confiscation, and would resist it. I don't know the stats, but I think the majority of guns used in these types of assaults were obtained legally. At some point, we'd have to talk confiscation, and then the gun battles would ensue.

So, the US is locked in a path, and any serious move to break new ground will be blocked by the gun nutters...

Some posters in this thread have made it crystal clear that if school children being shot en masse is the price of gun ownership, then they count that a bargain...

Please name them, these posters.

[Jason]

Mozg said something about accepting it as the price of gun ownership. Jim is exaggerating just a little bit.

[Blind groper]

To Seth

It is worth noting that the mother of the Connecticut killer was a survivalist, just like you. Just like you, she collected guns and ammunition. Just like you, she had the delusion that more guns made her safer. till her son shot her, and went on a rampage, finally killing himself.

More guns make society less safe. Simple as that.

The question was asked, how in the US constitution can regular inspections be carried out. The answer is simple. Make gun licences annual. To renew a gun license requires an inspection, and that is carried out when the gun owner invites the inspector in to carry out the inspection, and supervises the inspection. No invitation means no gun license renewal and the compulsory return of the gun. Such as system would not violate the fourth amendment.

[Seth]

tl;dr

Exactly what we expected.

Exactly what you deserved, and exactly correct.

[Seth]

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you.

And it's not paranoia if someone IS out to get you, which happens to be true for gun owners. Hoplophobes and gun banners ARE out to get us, which makes our fears entirely rational and reasonable.

[Jason]

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you.

And it's not paranoia if someone IS out to get you, which happens to be true for gun owners. Hoplophobes and gun banners ARE out to get us, which makes our fears entirely rational and reasonable.

So you're (gun) nutters because they're out to get you because you're (gun) nutters?

[Kristie]

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you.

And it's not paranoia if someone IS out to get you, which happens to be true for gun owners. Hoplophobes and gun banners ARE out to get us, which makes our fears entirely rational and reasonable.

Out to get you? I wish you no harm. I would like to smack you upside your head, but I certainly don't want you seriously harmed. You really are paranoid.

[Gallstones]

To Seth

It is worth noting that the mother of the Connecticut killer was a survivalist, just like you. Just like you, she collected guns and ammunition. Just like you, she had the delusion that more guns made her safer. till her son shot her, and went on a rampage, finally killing himself.

More guns make society less safe. Simple as that.

The question was asked, how in the US constitution can regular inspections be carried out. The answer is simple. Make gun licences annual. To renew a gun license requires an inspection, and that is carried out when the gun owner invites the inspector in to carry out the inspection, and supervises the inspection. No invitation means no gun license renewal and the compulsory return of the gun. Such as system would not violate the fourth amendment.

Was she--and "just like" Seth?

If you knew her and spent time talking to her why didn't you say so before now. People have been very interested and you could have filled us all in on what she thought and what she feared and what she felt and what she wanted and well, everything. Please, do tell.

[SteveB]

I'm out to get Seth.

[Jason]

I'd got him zeroed in. Wind from the South East at 14 knots. Barometric pressure 99.2 kilopascals. Range to target 845 meters. Angle of declination 5 degrees.

Take the shot?

[Seth]

To Seth

It is worth noting that the mother of the Connecticut killer was a survivalist, just like you. Just like you, she collected guns and ammunition. Just like you, she had the delusion that more guns made her safer. till her son shot her, and went on a rampage, finally killing himself.

Fallacy. The fact that one person who lawfully owned firearms was murdered by her deranged son is hardly proof that "survivalists" are deluded in their belief that their guns make them safer. Shit happens, and sometimes you die.

More guns make society less safe. Simple as that.

Didn't work that way for the Jews of Germany, the intellectuals of Cambodia, the religious of Russia and the culturally undesirable of China. It cost a hundred million of them their lives.

And if you were right, then Chicago and Detroit would be the safest cities in the US. Guess what, they aren't.

The question was asked, how in the US constitution can regular inspections be carried out. The answer is simple. Make gun licences annual.

Wrong. It is unconstitutional to license a fundamental right. The power to license implies that the government may revoke that license at will. That violates the Constitution. For the same reason that the government cannot license newspapers or churches it cannot license the RKBA.

To renew a gun license requires an inspection, and that is carried out when the gun owner invites the inspector in to carry out the inspection, and supervises the inspection. No invitation means no gun license renewal and the compulsory return of the gun. Such as system would not violate the fourth amendment.

It would violate the 2nd, 4th and 5th Amendments all at once.

2nd Amendment: Government cannot make the exercise of a fundamental individual right conditional upon the issuance of a government license, and since the RKBA is such a right, no such requirement is lawful.

4th Amendment: The right to be secure in one's effects absent a search warrant issued by a judge, which requires probable cause that the individual has committed a crime prohibits the government from engaging in mandatory annual inspections of firearms.

5th Amendment: The right to not incriminate onesself prevents the government from requiring the registration of firearms because if the individual is a criminal or the weapon is contraband, to force them to register it under penalty of law violates the self-incrimination protections of the 5th Amendment. This particular point has already been addressed by the Supreme Court in throwing out a state requirement that felons register their illegal guns. Thus, if a mandatory registration scheme for existing guns was implemented, and people simply refused to register them, the law requiring registration would be held invalid because those persons, having failed to register their arms, would be incriminating themselves if they later came forward to do so.

It is constitutionally permissible to require registration of all NEW firearms purchases, but it's a very, very bad idea and does nothing to prevent crime or the sort of incident that just took place. Canada tried a long-gun registry and it was a massive billion dollar fail.

Try getting 200 million people to register their guns? Good luck with that. Civil disobedience would be nearly universal, and outright rebellion might well occur.

The solution to school shootings is to harden schools and provide teachers and staff with arms that they can use if there is an attack.

[Jason]

It would violate the 2nd, 4th and 5th Amendments all at once.

So overturn the constitution. The supreme court can do that I believe.

[Seth]

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you.

And it's not paranoia if someone IS out to get you, which happens to be true for gun owners. Hoplophobes and gun banners ARE out to get us, which makes our fears entirely rational and reasonable.

Out to get you? I wish you no harm. I would like to smack you upside your head, but I certainly don't want you seriously harmed. You really are paranoid.

Taking away my guns directly harms me by eliminating my ability to defend myself effectively or respond effectively to a call to duty in the militia.

It directly harms me to have my fundamental civil rights disparaged and infringed upon for no good reason.