27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

[Tero]

But if you take the guns and raise taxes to 50%, that's socialism!

[Cormac]

Yeah, but it's pretty silly to make comparisons.

Oh, I'm not really making comparisons so much. But it seems from that list that where guns aren't available, knives will be used in these attacks.

Oh, and also that this is not a new phenomenon, or an American phenomenon.

[Blind groper]

Oh but that's not freedom.

Go to a man who is sick and out of work. A man who barely feeds and clothes his family. Who houses them in something not much better than a dog house because he cannot afford rent. Who cannot afford to give his kids a good education. Who cannot afford the medical care which would permit him to get back to work.

Then ask him : "Are you free?"
Stand back, because he might hit you.

[MiM]

Go to the CEO who is driving his Mercedes from his down town office to his west side villa, and ask him if he is still a free man even though his taxes might be a few percent higher next year. A striking comparison - innit?

[macdoc]

That's what I've been saying this entire time - get at the root of the problem. However, the anti-gun nuts cannot see past their irrational bias and continue to trumpet the war song 'guns ARE the problem'.

bullshit....you will not change human behaviour with wishful thinking about "the root"....you change the outcome frequency by removing the availability of easily and impulsively lethal weapons.

That's the START point....THEN you deal with the underlying issues like bullying and domestic violence.

Even staid Switzerland stopped allowing ammo at home as there were too many incidents of suicide and domestic violence as every householder has to be trained and have a rifle for the military. But due to too many deaths the ammunition was recalled and only selected few can have live ammo which is subject to inspection and provided in sealed containers that if tampered carry a penalty.

and Switzerland still has higher gun deaths than the rest of Europe.

Saying you are going to change things socially while making lethal weapons ( and there is simply no reason in any first world nation for hand guns outside a sporting range ) readily available is hypocritical in the extreme.

[Jason]

Tell me macdoc, we both live in Canada, we have ease of access near what Americans have, why do we not have elementary school massacres?

[Gallstones]

Faku

Forum discussions, exactly like normal human conversations, tend to wander. There is nothing wrong with this, and it helps to keep a discussion interesting. People who try to stop this by telling people that this is not the theme are not doing anyone any favors.

This thread has wandered into gun politics. Fair enough. It is an interesting subject (at least, until Seth gets involved). Why not explore where it goes? (until Seth gets involved).

And, it is 100% connected to the OP. How could it not be?

Yes, but it is a repetitive issue in the states and this will only harden opinions on both sides of the debate making the impasse even more concrete. It isn't resolvable without major social upheaval and until then the gnu debate itself is best left on the shelf....

You've said something that makes sense--except for the gnu part.

[Gallstones]

Faku

Forum discussions, exactly like normal human conversations, tend to wander. There is nothing wrong with this, and it helps to keep a discussion interesting. People who try to stop this by telling people that this is not the theme are not doing anyone any favors.

This thread has wandered into gun politics. Fair enough. It is an interesting subject (at least, until Seth gets involved). Why not explore where it goes? (until Seth gets involved).

And, it is 100% connected to the OP. How could it not be?

Yes, but it is a repetitive issue in the states and this will only harden opinions on both sides of the debate making the impasse even more concrete. It isn't resolvable without major social upheaval and until then the gnu debate itself is best left on the shelf....

I agree that it will harden opinions on both sides. Obama was signalling he might move on this. I foresee lots of sieges in Montana...

• 

[orpheus]

That's what I've been saying this entire time - get at the root of the problem. However, the anti-gun nuts cannot see past their irrational bias and continue to trumpet the war song 'guns ARE the problem'.

bullshit....you will not change human behaviour with wishful thinking about "the root"....you change the outcome frequency by removing the availability of easily and impulsively lethal weapons.

That's the START point....THEN you deal with the underlying issues like bullying and domestic violence.

Even staid Switzerland stopped allowing ammo at home as there were too many incidents of suicide and domestic violence as every householder has to be trained and have a rifle for the military. But due to too many deaths the ammunition was recalled and only selected few can have live ammo which is subject to inspection and provided in sealed containers that if tampered carry a penalty.

and Switzerland still has higher gun deaths than the rest of Europe.

Saying you are going to change things socially while making lethal weapons ( and there is simply no reason in any first world nation for hand guns outside a sporting range ) readily available is hypocritical in the extreme.

[Gallstones]

That's what I've been saying this entire time - get at the root of the problem. However, the anti-gun nuts cannot see past their irrational bias and continue to trumpet the war song 'guns ARE the problem'.

It is easier to focus on the means rather than the cause because causes are complex and cause brain pain.

There is a poster on ftb making the sorts of dumb logic fail as yourself. "Teh shooter must be crazy therefore guns are not the problem." She is called Eris Caffee, are you related? Ever thought that every time you orgasm with your gun you might be part of a complex gun culture problem? Or does that cause you brain pain?

Yes.




No.




Fuck you.

[Blind groper]

Go to the CEO who is driving his Mercedes from his down town office to his west side villa, and ask him if he is still a free man even though his taxes might be a few percent higher next year. A striking comparison - innit?

MiM

The wealthy have the most freedom of all.
So, no. Not a striking comparison.

Any nation that is set up so that a sizable proportion of their people cannot, for example, gain an education, is not free. Simple as that.

The USA is the least free of all the 24 richest countries by that standard, and it has the easiest access to guns.

The whole point is that gun availability does not lead to liberty.

[orpheus]

That's what I've been saying this entire time - get at the root of the problem. However, the anti-gun nuts cannot see past their irrational bias and continue to trumpet the war song 'guns ARE the problem'.

It is easier to focus on the means rather than the cause because causes are complex and cause brain pain.

There is a poster on ftb making the sorts of dumb logic fail as yourself. "Teh shooter must be crazy therefore guns are not the problem." She is called Eris Caffee, are you related? Ever thought that every time you orgasm with your gun you might be part of a complex gun culture problem? Or does that cause you brain pain?

Yes.




No.




Fuck you.

It's easier to insist the means have nothing to do with it because to admit otherwise would both admit how complex the problem actually is, as well as put favorite toys in danger of being taken away. This causes brain pain.

[Gallstones]

Frankly I have come to the basic unambiguous opinion that anyone who justifies the gun ownership laws in America as they are, are idiots and downright stupid. I've read and taken part in enough so called debate on the subject and nothing changes - nor is it likely to for a long while.

Enjoy your guns and justify the dead children (and other thousands of dead) any fucking way you want.

Enjoy your sanctimony and your lies about what my enjoyment of guns says about me.

[Gallstones]

That's what I've been saying this entire time - get at the root of the problem. However, the anti-gun nuts cannot see past their irrational bias and continue to trumpet the war song 'guns ARE the problem'.

It is easier to focus on the means rather than the cause because causes are complex and cause brain pain.

There is a poster on ftb making the sorts of dumb logic fail as yourself. "Teh shooter must be crazy therefore guns are not the problem." She is called Eris Caffee, are you related? Ever thought that every time you orgasm with your gun you might be part of a complex gun culture problem? Or does that cause you brain pain?

Yes.




No.




Fuck you.

It's easier to insist the means have nothing to do with it because to admit otherwise would both admit how complex the problem actually is, as well as put favorite toys in danger of being taken away. This causes brain pain.

No.
Means is one bullet point. Even the stupidest can think of that without suffering any intellectual toil.
How many bullet points will be on the list of causes?

[MiM]

Groper: I really tried to underline your point, and thought my irony was impossible to miss. Obviously I was wrong.