27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

[Svartalf]

Something else just occurred to me. To those who contend that guns are not the problem; that people would just kill with other implements: why don't we see those incidents then? If there's nothing special about guns, we should also see comparable numbers of murders and mass murders from other weapons. But we don't.

Wonder why that is.

You really think the guy would not have killed his parents with knife or baseball bat before trying to turn on the kids if he'd had no gun available? think again, the nut is the cause.
Don't blame the implement for doing its job too well.

[cronus]

It's always the quiet ones who blow up. Bet he was a quiet one?...keeping himself to himself, listening to his own jack and evolving into his own beast.

[sandinista]

Something else just occurred to me. To those who contend that guns are not the problem; that people would just kill with other implements: why don't we see those incidents then? If there's nothing special about guns, we should also see comparable numbers of murders and mass murders from other weapons. But we don't.

Wonder why that is.

You really think the guy would not have killed his parents with knife or baseball bat before trying to turn on the kids if he'd had no gun available? think again, the nut is the cause.
Don't blame the implement for doing its job too well.

I doubt he would have used a bat or knife. Killing someone with a gun from a distance is a lot...a lot different than killing someone up close with a knife or bat. Even if he did kill his folks the chance he kills that many people...children...with a knife or bat is highly unlikely. The implement shares the blame, no doubt. That doesn't mean I am FOR gun control either.

[orpheus]

Something else just occurred to me. To those who contend that guns are not the problem; that people would just kill with other implements: why don't we see those incidents then? If there's nothing special about guns, we should also see comparable numbers of deaths - intentional and accidental - from other weapons. But we don't. 

Wonder why that is.

Let me try to straighten out your warped perception of this line of argument. When I say guns are not the problem, I mean they are not the causative factor. The availability of guns is the reason they are used, yes. But the reason tragedies like this occur is not because of the tools employed. Thus they are not the problem. Remove the tools, the problem remains. Guns did not make this man do what he did, he used them to do it.

Sometimes I wonder if anti-gun people understand the concept of causality at all.

Yes, I understand causality, and I never said guns were the cause. I never said guns made the guy do this. You're putting words in my mouth there.

But guns are not comparable to old tool, either. I wonder if you understand that. You say the availability of guns is the reason they're used. Bullshit. Knives and blunt objects are much more easily available, yet we don't see knife and blunt object tragedies on anything like this scale. What you've left out is that guns are remarkably efficient killing tools, designed expressly for that purpose. To not take that into account when describing the problem is either short-sighted or flat out dishonest.

So you're technically right when you say "Remove the tools, the problem remains." But remove these particular tools and the intensity and scale of the problem will go way, way down. 

[Kristie]

Something else just occurred to me. To those who contend that guns are not the problem; that people would just kill with other implements: why don't we see those incidents then? If there's nothing special about guns, we should also see comparable numbers of deaths - intentional and accidental - from other weapons. But we don't. 

Wonder why that is.

Let me try to straighten out your warped perception of this line of argument. When I say guns are not the problem, I mean they are not the causative factor. The availability of guns is the reason they are used, yes. But the reason tragedies like this occur is not because of the tools employed. Thus they are not the problem. Remove the tools, the problem remains. Guns did not make this man do what he did, he used them to do it.

Sometimes I wonder if anti-gun people understand the concept of causality at all.

Yes, I understand causality, and I never said guns were the cause. I never said guns made the guy do this. You're putting words in my mouth there.

But guns are not comparable to old tool, either. I wonder if you understand that. You say the availability of guns is the reason they're used. Bullshit. Knives and blunt objects are much more easily available, yet we don't see knife and blunt object tragedies on anything like this scale. What you've left out is that guns are remarkably efficient killing tools, designed expressly for that purpose. To not take that into account when describing the problem is either short-sighted or flat out dishonest.

So you're technically right when you say "Remove the tools, the problem remains." But remove these particular tools and the intensity and scale of the problem will go way, way down. 

[Gerald McGrew]

It is very strange that a person may be denied their constitutional right to bear arms on the basis of past mental illness, but to conduct a psychological profile to determine if they pose a danger to themselves or others (the basis of disqualification for past mental illnesses I believe) before becoming a gun owner is said to be unconstitutional. Clearly there are provisos for denying this constitutional right in place, why must mental illness first be demonstrated for them to be exercised?

I don't think conducting a psychological test on prospective gun owners has been tested in court, likely because no one is proposing such a thing. So what I wrote is my speculation. But I do think courts have consistently found that having all Constitutional rights are the default status until a compelling reason is provided to deny them. Kind of an "innocent until proven guilty" thing, except it's "sane until proven insane" in this case.

Another question that would clearly arise from pre-testing owners is where to draw the line. Suppose you have a person who wants to buy a gun, but his test results put him just on the "deny" side of the line (where ever that is). He has no history of mental illness, no criminal record, and has been a productive member of society all his life. Can you deny him his Constitutional right to own a gun because of what you think he might do? I don't know, but IMO such a program wouldn't be too hard to argue against in court.

[Gerald McGrew]

Yes, I understand causality, and I never said guns were the cause. I never said guns made the guy do this. You're putting words in my mouth there.

But guns are not comparable to old tool, either. I wonder if you understand that. You say the availability of guns is the reason they're used. Bullshit. Knives and blunt objects are much more easily available, yet we don't see knife and blunt object tragedies on anything like this scale. What you've left out is that guns are remarkably efficient killing tools, designed expressly for that purpose. To not take that into account when describing the problem is either short-sighted or flat out dishonest.

So you're technically right when you say "Remove the tools, the problem remains." But remove these particular tools and the intensity and scale of the problem will go way, way down. 

Recently at my kids' school, a student with a history of impulsive anger issues went off on a teacher, smashed a window, grabbed a large shard of glass, and spent about an hour running around the campus chasing students and teachers, trying to cut or stab them. He was eventually subdued.

Know how many people he hurt? None. Now what if he'd had a gun?

[Rum]

If lack of gun control is not the reason for the disproportionate amount of gun crime in the USA, then there must be another, given the level of gun linked killing in the USA. Logically one can only conclude, that Americans are more violent and murderous than the rest of us.

This however is not my experience of the ones I have met, so...

[Blind groper]

Interesting to see how much furore on Rationalia this incident arouses.

Mass shootings like this one are a minor aspect of the gun problem. What would it be on average? Somewhere between 10 and 50 deaths per year???

Yet guns used in suicides and homicides account for more than 20,000 deaths per year in the USA. That is the real problem. The occasional nutter getting hold of guns and shooting people in a school is minor and rare by comparison.

If I can define 'child' as anyone teenage or younger, then it would be fair to say that, for every child shot in these outrageous incidents, more than 100 kill themselves by picking up their father's gun and blowing their brains out.

Yet, in spite of all of this, there is not a single political action, no matter how minor, to reduce the problem. What is up with your politicians?

[Gerald McGrew]

I wonder if we can all agree at the very least that if we don't do something, these sorts of incidents are going to continue?

[Rum]

Interesting to see how much furore on Rationalia this incident arouses.

Mass shootings like this one are a minor aspect of the gun problem. What would it be on average? Somewhere between 10 and 50 deaths per year???

Yet guns used in suicides and homicides account for more than 20,000 deaths per year in the USA. That is the real problem. The occasional nutter getting hold of guns and shooting people in a school is minor and rare by comparison.

If I can define 'child' as anyone teenage or younger, then it would be fair to say that, for every child shot in these outrageous incidents, more than 100 kill themselves by picking up their father's gun and blowing their brains out.

Yet, in spite of all of this, there is not a single political action, no matter how minor, to reduce the problem. What is up with your politicians?

Given people here are a fairly bright lot on the whole I think you can take it for granted most people know this.

[lordpasternack]

[klr]

What are the chances that this massacre will result in the same sort of political action that the Dunblane massacre did in the UK? Namely, a near-total ban on privately-owned handguns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre

I think we all know the answer to that one.

[Tero]

If you come after me with an axe, I have a pretty good chance of running away. A gun....

[lordpasternack]

What are the chances that this massacre will result in the same sort of political action that the Dunblane massacre did in the UK? Namely, a near-total ban on privately-owned handguns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre

I think we all know the answer to that one.