Does Nationalism excuse ones behaviour?

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Re: Does Nationalism excuse ones behaviour?

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:47 pm

Manofnofaith wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:What is wrong is to feel pride for the achievements of any group unless you yourself directly contributed to those achievements.
You say this again, and I disagree again, as I did before. I have to say we're at loggerheads here. I apparently can't convince you, and you can't convince me, so I'll just drop it and leave us both with our opinions.

I hope you both have a nice day, Xamonas and CJ, and I hope we can be civil in continued dicussion. Good day! :tup:
(My emphasis replaced - in the first quoted section.)

I am happy to agree to disagree. I was irked that you seemed to be misinterpreting my arguments and attacking those misinterpretations. Be sure I will be on the watch for that in future - just in case... :eddy: ;)

And I hope your day is nice as well - not wonderful, but not too terrible, just nice. Fuck I hate that phrase!! (Sorry - that was not directed at you - just the whole nice day thing in general.)

But do let's be civil and continue to debate. :tup:
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Re: Does Nationalism excuse ones behaviour?

Post by Transgirlofnofaith » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:28 pm

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
Manofnofaith wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:What is wrong is to feel pride for the achievements of any group unless you yourself directly contributed to those achievements.
You say this again, and I disagree again, as I did before. I have to say we're at loggerheads here. I apparently can't convince you, and you can't convince me, so I'll just drop it and leave us both with our opinions.

I hope you both have a nice day, Xamonas and CJ, and I hope we can be civil in continued dicussion. Good day! :tup:
(My emphasis replaced - in the first quoted section.)

I am happy to agree to disagree. I was irked that you seemed to be misinterpreting my arguments and attacking those misinterpretations. Be sure I will be on the watch for that in future - just in case... :eddy: ;)

And I hope your day is nice as well - not wonderful, but not too terrible, just nice. Fuck I hate that phrase!! (Sorry - that was not directed at you - just the whole nice day thing in general.)

But do let's be civil and continue to debate. :tup:
Well, apart from the "not wonderful" comment, which seems a little passive-aggressive, thanks for mostly being concilatory. So can you accept that what I'm trying to say is that tribalism is a normal part of Human Nature which can be either neutral or be abused, and that we as a species need to channel it in a civil and rational way? :dono: Not trying to get you to endorse my views, I just want to confirm that you understand where I'm coming from on this.
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Re: Does Nationalism excuse ones behaviour?

Post by gooseboy » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:38 pm

Oh my god - what happened here? Did somebody call the USA Canada's asshat or something?
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Re: Does Nationalism excuse ones behaviour?

Post by RPizzle » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:48 pm

Sir, you have gone too far! :mob:

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Re: Does Nationalism excuse ones behaviour?

Post by Bella Fortuna » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:50 pm

RPizzle wrote:Sir, you have gone too far! :mob:
Simmer down; we consider Pennsylvania the Canada of the south anyway...
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Re: Does Nationalism excuse ones behaviour?

Post by RPizzle » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:52 pm

*gasp*

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Re: Does Nationalism excuse ones behaviour?

Post by Transgirlofnofaith » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:54 pm

gooseboy wrote:Oh my god - what happened here? Did somebody call the USA Canada's asshat or something?
Wouldn't it be Canada's chair? :mrgreen:
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Re: Does Nationalism excuse ones behaviour?

Post by Bella Fortuna » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:54 pm

RPizzle wrote:*gasp*
*snicker* :hehe:
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Re: Does Nationalism excuse ones behaviour?

Post by RPizzle » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:58 pm

You cut me deep. You cut me real deep... :cry:

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Re: Does Nationalism excuse ones behaviour?

Post by gooseboy » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:05 pm

:hehe:

Paul Keating called Australia the arse end of the world. We were so upset after that that we only elected him Prime Minister once.
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Re: Does Nationalism excuse ones behaviour?

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:13 pm

Manofnofaith wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
Manofnofaith wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:What is wrong is to feel pride for the achievements of any group unless you yourself directly contributed to those achievements.
You say this again, and I disagree again, as I did before. I have to say we're at loggerheads here. I apparently can't convince you, and you can't convince me, so I'll just drop it and leave us both with our opinions.

I hope you both have a nice day, Xamonas and CJ, and I hope we can be civil in continued dicussion. Good day! :tup:
(My emphasis replaced - in the first quoted section.)

I am happy to agree to disagree. I was irked that you seemed to be misinterpreting my arguments and attacking those misinterpretations. Be sure I will be on the watch for that in future - just in case... :eddy: ;)

And I hope your day is nice as well - not wonderful, but not too terrible, just nice. Fuck I hate that phrase!! (Sorry - that was not directed at you - just the whole nice day thing in general.)

But do let's be civil and continue to debate. :tup:
Well, apart from the "not wonderful" comment, which seems a little passive-aggressive, thanks for mostly being concilatory. So can you accept that what I'm trying to say is that tribalism is a normal part of Human Nature which can be either neutral or be abused, and that we as a species need to channel it in a civil and rational way? :dono: Not trying to get you to endorse my views, I just want to confirm that you understand where I'm coming from on this.
I just hate "Have a nice day." as a concept. As I said, it was not aimed at you.

I do understand. I just happen to think that it is a part of 'human nature' that can be dispensed with, or at least suppressed, instead of encouraged. Religious belief and superstition is a part of human nature too. As is violent aggression towards sexual rivals. We use reason to oust these ghosts of the past - tribalism is another that should suffer the same fate. Unfortunately, it is useful to those holding power and thus encouraged.
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Re: Does Nationalism excuse ones behaviour?

Post by Transgirlofnofaith » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:48 am

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:We use reason to oust these ghosts of the past - tribalism is another that should suffer the same fate. Unfortunately, it is useful to those holding power and thus encouraged.
This sounds like some sort of anarchist sentiment. :what: :? :hehe: Are you an anarchist? :think: And is that why you don't belive in social constructs? :dono: Really. I'm curious why you think in this way. Please explain. You haven't been shy before. ;) So spill already. I'm interested.
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Xamonas Chegwé
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Re: Does Nationalism excuse ones behaviour?

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:20 am

Manofnofaith wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:We use reason to oust these ghosts of the past - tribalism is another that should suffer the same fate. Unfortunately, it is useful to those holding power and thus encouraged.
This sounds like some sort of anarchist sentiment. :what: :? :hehe: Are you an anarchist? :think: And is that why you don't belive in social constructs? :dono: Really. I'm curious why you think in this way. Please explain. You haven't been shy before. ;) So spill already. I'm interested.
Strawman. I never said anything of the sort. I said that nationalism was illogical and a product of emotional thought. How does this imply that I 'don't believe in social constructs'? You are extrapolating rather wildly there. I have to go out for a bit - I will answer more thoroughly later.
A book is a version of the world. If you do not like it, ignore it; or offer your own version in return.
Salman Rushdie
You talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic.
House MD
Who needs a meaning anyway, I'd settle anyday for a very fine view.
Sandy Denny
This is the wrong forum for bluffing :nono:
Paco
Yes, yes. But first I need to show you this venomous fish!
Calilasseia
I think we should do whatever Pawiz wants.
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Xamonas Chegwé
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Re: Does Nationalism excuse ones behaviour?

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:59 am

OK. I'm back.

No, I am not an anarchist. Although I like the idea in practice, I am not naïve enough to consider any form of anarchy at all workable.

Basically, I am an internationalist (if you must label me!) Here is my idealised view of world politics. (I am not naïve enough to believe that this is immediately possible either - I would just like to see the world working towards something of this nature.)

I would like to see a loose-knit world government - a UN with real teeth, if you like - along the lines of a far better run European Union. Just as national governments devolve power to regional councils at varying levels - taking Canada as an example: Federal > State > County > Town - there should be an over-arching body that is charged with keeping individual countries in order, preventing protectionist policies, aggression towards neighbours, settling border disputes, protecting fundamental human rights, etc.

National governments should be but one level in a hierarchy of government that extends from this global body, down to local councils at the other extreme.

I should like to see a relaxing of all national boundaries. An end to import / export restrictions and immigration / emigration quotas. Relocating to, or trading with, another country should be as simple as moving or trading between Manitoba and Saskatchewan.

I am sure that you can pick a million holes in this idea. I could probably point out most of them for you. It is an ideal - just as all systems of government inevitably are. On a practical level, however, it can be approached more closely, even if never actually achieved - a political asymptote, as it were. In fact, I believe that history since WWII has shown a moving in this direction.

In my opinion, nationalism is the diametric opposite of this global vision. If we are to overcome the problems facing our modern, overcrowded world we need an end to nationalism and its associated isolationism and protectionism.

Oh. And I would also like to see an end to religion. And cats and dogs living together would be nice too.
A book is a version of the world. If you do not like it, ignore it; or offer your own version in return.
Salman Rushdie
You talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic.
House MD
Who needs a meaning anyway, I'd settle anyday for a very fine view.
Sandy Denny
This is the wrong forum for bluffing :nono:
Paco
Yes, yes. But first I need to show you this venomous fish!
Calilasseia
I think we should do whatever Pawiz wants.
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Re: Does Nationalism excuse ones behaviour?

Post by irreligionist » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:35 pm

Xamonas Chegwé wrote: And I would also like to see an end to religion. And cats and dogs living together would be nice too.
Here here :td:

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