Carrying guns leads to confrontations....

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Re: Carrying guns leads to confrontations....

Post by FBM » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:19 pm

Tero wrote:
FBM wrote:"average gun carrier"

Never seen one.
Well, duh, they are concealed of course.

But we can substitute two:
1 white male with pick up, high school diploma
2 ghetto male with clunker car, no diploma

Average those two and you have it.
While you're at it, how about defining the following with equal accuracy:

"average black guy"
"average gay guy"
"average lesbian"
"average Asian"
"average intelligence"
"average truck driver"
"average football fan"
"average European immigrant"
etc, etc.

It's all fueled by sloppy reasoning, quick-and-easy stereotyping, black-and-white thinking, hasty generalization, etc, creating the various "isms" like racism, sexism, nationalism, etc. Lamentable. And embarrassing for an intelligent person to commit such a flagrant fallacy. But it's your life, your mind. Do with them what you like. No skin off of my teeth.
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Re: Carrying guns leads to confrontations....

Post by macdoc » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:23 pm

There is a severe myopia among some non-American folks, and they seem to judge the US as if it is "England," or some other blip on the map that Utah can carry around its back pocket without knowing it was there.
there is no myopia on our part - look in a mirror for that
- there are the facts and they say the US is fucked up beyond belief compared to any other civilized nation when it comes to guns and prisons....

BTW both Canada and Australia are larger so that has no bearing and Tokyo more densely populated than any of your cities.

and Canada is partially fucked cuz the your guns come across the border and the right wing idjits in charge of the country temporarily cancelled our gun registry despite the wishes of the police chiefs... :nono:

what is it with right wingdings.....some cog loose somewhere :coffee:
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Re: Carrying guns leads to confrontations....

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:28 pm

macdoc wrote:
There is a severe myopia among some non-American folks, and they seem to judge the US as if it is "England," or some other blip on the map that Utah can carry around its back pocket without knowing it was there.
there is no myopia on our part - look in a mirror for that
- there are the facts and they say the US is fucked up beyond belief compared to any other civilized nation when it comes to guns and prisons....
And, there is your myopia.

You don't understand that the US is as varied as Europe when it comes to gun violence.

macdoc wrote: BTW both Canada and Australia are larger so that has no bearing and Tokyo more densely populated than any of your cities.
Canada is larger by land area, but is around the size of Florida by population, a little bigger. Australia is smaller both in land area and population.

And, regarding Tokyo, so what?
macdoc wrote:
and Canada is partially fucked cuz the your guns come across the border and the right wing idjits in charge of the country temporarily cancelled our gun registry despite the wishes of the police chiefs... :nono:
The border is pretty wide open, and this gun influx you're talking about isn't occurring to any significant degree.
macdoc wrote:
what is it with right wingdings.....some cog loose somewhere :coffee:
LOL - namecalling. :pawiz:

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Re: Carrying guns leads to confrontations....

Post by Tero » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:32 pm

FBM, you sre missing the point. People are not that smart. Sorry, average is dumb. Dumb guys carrying concealed weapons on the street are no benefit to me. There may be a guy with a gun out there who could help me in a sticky situation. But very unlikely he will be there to help me. So the guys out there I will run into are
1 criminals
2 dumb guys with guns

The experienced ex-marine is not going to come by.
Last edited by Tero on Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Carrying guns leads to confrontations....

Post by Gallstones » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:36 pm

Woman killed by elbow
Apparently it was loaded and the guy was in the habit of carrying it around--plus they were both drunk.
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Re: Carrying guns leads to confrontations....

Post by Tero » Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:19 pm

I'll be sure to avoid all pedestrians with loaded elbows. I only need to cross the street to avoid them.

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Re: Carrying guns leads to confrontations....

Post by Seth » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:03 pm

Tero wrote:...that would have been avoided.

Do I need examples? Zimmerman. And at least half the gun owners are potentially dangerous.

Prove that they aren't. Including criminals.

This is not a discussion of the law or constitutiion. Merely human failures and stupidity.
You made the claim, now it's up to you to prove that about 100 million people are "potentially dangerous."

Of course, it's relatively easy to admit that ALL gun owners are potentially dangerous. I'm the most dangerous man that you're ever likely to meet because I can put you down in less than one second with two in the chest and one in the head.

But, the fallacy of your claim is that there's nothing wrong with being dangerous...it depends entirely on who you are dangerous TO. I'm only dangerous to criminals who threaten my or someone else's life unlawfully. But to them I'm exceedingly dangerous.

I'm also the safest person you can possibly be around if somebody else decides to start shooting at you because I'll defend you at risk to my own life even knowing that you're a hoplophobe and an enemy of gun owners everywhere.

That's because I have skill, training, reason, logic, morals, and ethics...unlike some people I could name.
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"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Carrying guns leads to confrontations....

Post by Seth » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:04 pm

Tero wrote:FBM, you sre missing the point. People are not that smart. Sorry, average is dumb. Dumb guys carrying concealed weapons on the street are no benefit to me. There may be a guy with a gun out there who could help me in a sticky situation. But very unlikely he will be there to help me. So the guys out there I will run into are
1 criminals
2 dumb guys with guns

The experienced ex-marine is not going to come by.
Neither is a cop. Which is why it's up to YOU to prepare for such eventualities.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Carrying guns leads to confrontations....

Post by Seth » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:08 pm

Tero wrote:It's irrelevant what was in Zs or Martin's head. However, I would not weep over Z if he went and confronted M with no gun in pocket. He had no authority to confront anyone. Only to report them.
Wrong. It was HIS private, gated community and moreover, as a citizen, he has authority to confront and ask questions of ANY person he deems to be engaged in suspicious activity. His authority to do so is inherent, and is coequal with that of a police officer. If he witnessed the suspect commit an "offense" in his presence, his authority to ARREST the suspect is coequal with that of a police officer, including the authority to use reasonable and appropriate physical force to effect that arrest.

Of course the suspect is not obliged to answer the query, but the mere approach, contact and questions are not any sort of justification for a violent, murderous attack.

So, once again, legal reality conflicts with your ideological blindness and wins out.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Carrying guns leads to confrontations....

Post by Seth » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:15 pm

mozg wrote:
Tero wrote:You've obviously done some thinking and training.
As has everyone else I know who lawfully carries a firearm.
The average gun carrier goes by gut feel and serotonin levels in their brain. We have these mechanisms so that we can make fast fight or flee decisions. Complex evaluation of cosequences is not done on the spot with gun in hand.
That's why all the thinking and training beforehand. If you do find yourself in that situation where you have only seconds to make that choice and fire or not fire, everything you trained and practiced for should be so well oiled in your muscles that you default to your training.

This is why I don't get people who fault us or think that training makes us crazy. I've spent thousands of hours and thousands of dollars not being an irresponsible fool looking for a confrontation, and there are always people who think that I'm a horrid person because of that training.

Either way, someone's going to think I'm a terrible person. I chose the way I can live with, and so did everyone else I know who carries legally. Including all those pickup truck driving redneck yokels that people here are so quick to stereotype.

Couldn't agree more, Mozg. The primary axiom of response to a crisis is "In a crisis, you will revert to your training." The corollary is "If you have not trained to respond to a crisis, you will do nothing."

You and I have trained long and hard to respond appropriately to a critical situation, which makes us far more likely to never ever experience such a situation simply because our training raises our level of situational awareness which helps to keep us OUT of shoot/don't shoot scenarios.

Nobody I know who lawfully carries a gun has any wish at all to shoot someone, in part because it costs, on average, about $50,000 per shooting out of pocket even if the shooting is completely justifiable. Armed citizens are in fact eleven times less likely to actually use deadly force in situations where they would be justified in doing so than police officers.

But at the narrow passage, when put to the test, I think it's much wiser to be prepared and armed simply because it gives you options that an unarmed person does not have. You don't have to draw your gun, but if you need to, you can. Tero can't. All he can do is be a victim.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Carrying guns leads to confrontations....

Post by Seth » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:17 pm

Tero wrote:You've obviously done some thinking and training.

The average gun carrier goes by gut feel and serotonin levels in their brain. We have these mechanisms so that we can make fast fight or flee decisions. Complex evaluation of cosequences is not done on the spot with gun in hand.

Serotonin levels
http://www.dana.org/news/brainwork/detail.aspx?id=13182
What do you know about the "average gun carrier?"

Absolutely nothing. You're just pulling this out of your ass.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Carrying guns leads to confrontations....

Post by Seth » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:28 pm

Tero wrote:Yes but the gun in pocket makes the idiot bolder. Very portable and a secret weapon. I say it is not incidental. Seth has numbers to show that more people carrying guns makes the criminal hesitate. The other guy could have a gun. But they could both go the other way, not baring the teeth at the enemy at all. Avoid the conflict.
You make the fallacious and ignorant presumption that carrying a gun makes the carrier more aggressive than other people.

This is, in my experience, categorically not true. Every person I know who carries (and I know many) is universally less aggressive and much, much more likely to do everything possible to avoid or deescalate a confrontation.

You are simply ignorant about the psychology of law-abiding gun owners who carry concealed. You have settled upon an ignorant stereotype that you cling to in the face of a complete and utter lack of evidence supporting your conclusion.

The actual fact, as shown by the statistics regarding licensed pistol carriers and the number of them that are involved in crimes and/or have had their permits revoked for some malfeasance involving their gun shows exactly the opposite!

They are actually far, far less likely to break any law than even the "average" unarmed citizen.

The overall general crime rate among the whole population is somewhere around 15 percent.

The overall general rate of revocation for permitees is less than one percent.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Carrying guns leads to confrontations....

Post by tattuchu » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:34 pm

Guns FTW:

Boy, 7, Shoots 8-Year-Old Sister By Accident In Philadelphia: Cops


It could have been much worse.

Police say that an 7-year-old boy found the key to a locked safe, took out his grandpa's disassembled gun, put it together, and accidentally shot his older sister in the arm, according to CBS Philly.

“For a 7-year-old to do that, that’s pretty creative, so he was playing with it for a little bit of time,” Lieutenant George McClay of the Philadelphia Police. “So far from our investigation, we think it’s an accident.”

The girl, 8, was rushed to the hospital on Thursday after the children's grandparents heard the shot, according to police.

Neighbors told WPVI that the children are well cared for.

"They're a wonderful family," Beverly Jackson told the station. "Really, they're just a close-knit family and I know this was an accident."

McClay said the boy showed remorse for his actions.

"The kid is very shook up," he told WPVI. "He's not happy with what he did and he knows he did something wrong."

The girl spent last night in the hospital but is expected to recover, according to MyFoxPhilly. Police do not plan to file charges against the boy or the grandparents, who have custody of the children.
People think "queue" is just "q" followed by 4 silent letters.

But those letters are not silent.

They're just waiting their turn.

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Re: Carrying guns leads to confrontations....

Post by Seth » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:39 pm

macdoc wrote:
There is a severe myopia among some non-American folks, and they seem to judge the US as if it is "England," or some other blip on the map that Utah can carry around its back pocket without knowing it was there.
there is no myopia on our part - look in a mirror for that
- there are the facts and they say the US is fucked up beyond belief compared to any other civilized nation when it comes to guns and prisons....

BTW both Canada and Australia are larger so that has no bearing and Tokyo more densely populated than any of your cities.

and Canada is partially fucked cuz the your guns come across the border and the right wing idjits in charge of the country temporarily cancelled our gun registry despite the wishes of the police chiefs... :nono:
What you really mean is that your elected representatives ignored the whining and carping of the police and acknowledged the fact that the "gun registry" was a colossal blunder that cost Canadians something more than a BILLION dollars without any provable reduction in crime rates. In fact, handgun crimes continued to bob up and down at nearly the same levels after the long-gun registry was implemented. And while long-gun shootings did decrease, there were only 170 shooting homicides in Canada in 2010 all tolled.

You see, "police chiefs" aren't in charge, the people, through their elected representatives are. Police chiefs need to shut the fuck up and keep their noses out of politics and simply enforce whatever laws the people command their legislature to enact, whether they like it or not. It's not their job or place to criticize the decisions of the People, and they should be fired if they do.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Carrying guns leads to confrontations....

Post by Tero » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:25 pm

Seth wrote:
Tero wrote:You've obviously done some thinking and training.

The average gun carrier goes by gut feel and serotonin levels in their brain. We have these mechanisms so that we can make fast fight or flee decisions. Complex evaluation of cosequences is not done on the spot with gun in hand.

Serotonin levels
http://www.dana.org/news/brainwork/detail.aspx?id=13182
What do you know about the "average gun carrier?"

Absolutely nothing. You're just pulling this out of your ass.
And you are not? I see mug shots of gun owners on Fox News daily. A guy monopolizes the tv at the gym.

I don't see a lot of smart guys in the mug shots. Send us 100 million gun owner mug shots. We will guess the IQ. Or I'll just guess now: 90.

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