Scouts consider oath for atheists.

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Scouts consider oath for atheists.

Post by Pappa » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:35 pm

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20584208
Scouts consider oath for atheists
4 December 2012 Last updated at 17:12

Scout membership has increased by more than 80,000 since 2005
The UK Scout Association is considering an alternative oath for atheists.

The 105-year-old movement is launching a consultation to see if members would back a Scout Promise for those who feel unable to pledge a "duty to God".

Versions of the oath already exist for the Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist faiths, but this is the first time such an adaptation has been considered.

In March, the National Secular Society said atheist children and potential Scout leaders were being put off.

Membership of the Scouts has increased from 444,936 in 2005 to 525,364 this year.

But the movement needs more volunteers - it says that at present there are over 35,000 young people on waiting lists.

Girlguiding UK has also announced it will launch a consultation on the wording of their promise, which will start on 4 January 2013.

'Values-based movement'

More than 50 scout groups catering for young people drawn mainly from Muslim, Hindu and Sikh communities have opened in the last 10 years.

The Scout Association says its existing promise, which also contains a vow of allegiance to the Queen, would continue to be used alongside any new version.

UK Scout Chief Commissioner Wayne Bulpitt added: "We are a values-based movement and exploring faith and religion will remain a key element of the Scouting programme. That will not change.

"However, throughout our 105-year history, we have continued to evolve so that we remain relevant to communities across the UK.

"We do that by regularly seeking the views of our members and we will use the information gathered by the consultation to help shape the future of Scouting for the coming years."

The existing Scout Promise reads: "On my honour, I promise that I will do my best, to do my duty to God and to the Queen, to help other people and to keep the Scout Law."

The alternative versions introduced more than 40 years ago allow Hindus and Buddhists to use the word "my Dharma" and Muslims "Allah" instead of God. Non UK citizens are able to replace the phrase "duty to the Queen" with "duty to the country in which I am now living".

In March, the National Secular Society, which aims to restrict the role of religion in public life, wrote to Chief Scout Bear Grylls, complaining that atheist children were being excluded or having to lie to join the movement.

Responding to the consultation announcement, NSS president Terry Sanderson, said: "This is a move in the right direction.

"By adjusting their promise to include people without a religious belief, the Scouts will bring themselves in line with the reality of 21st century Britain."

The news of the two consultations has been welcomed by the British Humanist Association (BHA), a charity which campaigns for an end to any mandatory promise to God or another deity or religion.

Their chief executive Andrew Copson said: "With two-thirds of young people today reporting themselves as not religious and a growing proportion not believing in any god, it is important that the promise should be inclusive.

"The current situation is unfair on those who are excluded from what is often the only organisation of its kind in the area - and one which has received considerable state funding."

But the grandson of Scouts founder Robert Baden-Powell told the BBC that the words of the oath provide a "sense of purpose to cling on to".

Australia-based Michael Baden-Powell, who has been involved with Scouting for more than 50 years, told Radio 4's PM programme that "belief in a higher being" remained at the "core of the movement".

He added: "We live in a society where... traditions... appear not to be as strong as they were in yesteryear. And I believe scouting fulfils a very, very valuable function in this area."
But they're not considering making the bit about the Queen optional. :hehe:

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Re: Scouts consider oath for atheists.

Post by Bella Fortuna » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:39 pm

I wish the American Scouts would get on this bandwagon. :roll:
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Re: Scouts consider oath for atheists.

Post by redunderthebed » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:57 pm

I think this is a good idea......I think any resistance will be from people wanting to maintain tradition more than any profound belief in god.

My sis was in scouts and there was no god bothering of note

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Re: Scouts consider oath for atheists.

Post by Ian » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:00 pm

Bella Fortuna wrote:I wish the American Scouts would get on this bandwagon. :roll:
Ditto, as I'm a little creeped out at the thought of my son joining the scouts someday given how ugly their politics have been in recent times. They probably always were, but a few stories have just gotten into the media lately.

I was in the Cub Scouts for a few years and the Boy Scouts for one. It was all good fun. I don't remember any religious stuff or anything along those lines. But who knows if I might've had a different Scoutmaster if they allowed gay people to participate. :dunno:

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Re: Scouts consider oath for atheists.

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:11 pm

I thought the Cub Scouts was lame for the time I was in it. Nothing religious was inculcated, except the oath:

I, Little CES, promise
to DO MY BEST
To do my DUTY to GOD
And my Country
To HELP other people, and
To OBEY the LAW of the Pack

___________________________________

I probably haven't thought about this motto for 35 years or more. What the fuck is the "law of the pack?" lol - I had to google that....

This is, apparently, the Law of the Pack -- which I have no present recollection of ever knowing:

The Cub Scout follows Akela.
The Cub Scout helps the pack go.
The pack helps the Cub Scout grow.
The Cub Scout gives goodwill.

I had no idea what "Akela" is -- so I googled that:

The Cub Scout follows Akela (say Ah-KAY-la) means: Akela is a good leader. Your mother or father is Akela. In the Pack, your Cubmaster is Akela. Your Den Leader is Akela. At school, your teacher is Akela. The Cub Scout helps the Pack go means: Come to all the meetings. Do what you can to help. Think of others in the pack. The Pack helps the Cub Scout grow means: You can have fun when you are a part of the pack. Learn things from others. Do things with them. The Cub Scout gives goodwill means: Smile. Be happy. Do things that make others happy. They don't have to be big things. Little Things help, too.

LOL -- no wonder I didn't like being a Cub Scout back in the day.... reading up on it now, it is definitely not something I would want a son of mine involved in -- well, I'm sure some "dens" don't worry much about these "principles" and such, and it's more about having fun and doing projects and helping people (all of which is great), but I really have an innate aversion to these little kids in faux military garb taking oaths and learning to serve in units.

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Re: Scouts consider oath for atheists.

Post by Tyrannical » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:13 pm

"duty to the country in which I am now living"
Is this what patriotism and the nation-state has been reduced to? Requiring the loyalty of a tourist?
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Re: Scouts consider oath for atheists.

Post by Kristie » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:14 pm

I think any scout group, boys or girls, depends on the leader of the group. My daughters Girl Scout troupe read the oath the first day and hasn't mentioned it since. Also, some groups do more activities and fun stuff. If you get an active group, I'm sure it's a very good thing for kids to be involved in.
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Re: Scouts consider oath for atheists.

Post by Tero » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:22 pm

They've had this for years in Nordic countries. Scouts are also integrated. Boy tents and girl tents still separate.

But the oath goes by your "religion" so atheist kids have to drop out of state Lutheran church (the parents) to qualify. Independent atheist teens can make a special case, refuse confirmation etc.

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Re: Scouts consider oath for atheists.

Post by charlou » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:14 pm

Why not take a secular approach and leave oaths out altogether.
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Re: Scouts consider oath for atheists.

Post by Kristie » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:15 pm

Oaths aren't necessarily religious, so depending on the wording, they may very well be secular. Scout oaths are not though.
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Re: Scouts consider oath for atheists.

Post by Tero » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:16 pm

Most of them are run by old farts who insist on at least patriotic oaths.

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Re: Scouts consider oath for atheists.

Post by Bella Fortuna » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:07 pm

Kristie wrote:I think any scout group, boys or girls, depends on the leader of the group. My daughters Girl Scout troupe read the oath the first day and hasn't mentioned it since. Also, some groups do more activities and fun stuff. If you get an active group, I'm sure it's a very good thing for kids to be involved in.
My observation is that the BSs has been far more at issue (and really push the anti-gay, anti-atheist stuff) than GSs. GSs don't have a controversial reputation in that regard, I'm not sure why - do they even have the same rules in that respect, I wonder? :ask:
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Re: Scouts consider oath for atheists.

Post by Tero » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:28 pm

There is a sort of interrogation of your character for eagle scout. Girls do not have that.

My kid was eagle, passed him of as Unitarian.

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Re: Scouts consider oath for atheists.

Post by JimC » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:46 pm

"...do my duty to a generalised concept of solidarity and trust amongst all sentient beings"

:hehe:
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Re: Scouts consider oath for atheists.

Post by Tero » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:10 pm

Commie!

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