Does Nationalism excuse ones behaviour?

[Feck]

I would just like to add "Wooooaaah, Lanky, Lanky! Lanky, Lanky, Lanky, Lanky, Lancashire!"

Repeat ad nauseum until you pass out.

OMG another one, let's face it you might as well be French

[Pappa]

Monkeys? I believe that's Hartlepool in County Durham.

How crazy was that... they thought it was a Frenchie!

The locals are still proud of it too.

[charlou]

[Transgirlofnofaith]

I see that no-one has responded to my post, so that must mean I'm right by default, because no-one has refuted my argument.

I WIN!!!

[Chinaski]

I see that no-one has responded to my post, so that must mean I'm right by default, because no-one has refuted my argument.

I WIN!!!

William Lane Craig is proud of you, son.

[AshtonBlack]

I see that no-one has responded to my post, so that must mean I'm right by default, because no-one has refuted my argument.

I WIN!!!

Did you respond to mine?

[Feck]

I see that no-one has responded to my post, so that must mean I'm right by default, because no-one has refuted my argument.

I WIN!!!

You can't "win" around here this is rationalia we just derail your furry ass

[AshtonBlack]

I see that no-one has responded to my post, so that must mean I'm right by default, because no-one has refuted my argument.

I WIN!!!

You can't "win" around here this is rationalia we just derail your furry ass

Not an image I want, thanks.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

People who wave flags should have them taken off them .

Now that is just stupid, honestly.

Where was I? Oh yes. Accident of birth. There are plenty of quotes about nationalism and I won't bore you with them (or myself by googling them) but it all boils down to the fact that you are not your country and (unless you just happen to be president or king) have almost certainly not influenced the course of events in your country sufficiently to have any proprietary claim on it. You were born there and you live there but you could just as well have been born somewhere else and live there. You might even have been swapped at the hospital and accidentally ended up whatever nationality you are while somebody else's kid returned to your true parent's home in Chile! (Apologies to any Chileans listening - I am sure your country is very nice - Tierra del Fuego looks especially beautiful.)

It is fine to be pleased about the things in your country that you agree with and that you like. But it is utterly wrong to feel pride or shame for those things - they aren't there because of you.

Now let me debunk this absurd piece of fatuousness. Yes, people aren't their nation, but humans a a species form groups. Those groups have their own character and behaviour patterns, and have characteristics of their own which do not relate directly to any one person in them, except for instances where one individual has a high degree of control. But even here there is some variation along the fringes and variety in how the orders of the heads of the heirarchy are carried out. So unless we were to completely change as a species and go live in the woods alone except to mate, then we would always be under the influence, or have knowledge of, the human groups around us. And the idea that just because we have not contributed directly to something means that it doesn't exist for us is as absurd as pretending that there is no such thing as a family, or a store, or a church, or a corporation, or a government, or a culture. We are immersed in these group environments by default, on the largest scale. As for the smaller groups, we can shoose whether or not to engage with them or to ignore them. Nations have various group aspects, and we can either ignore these aspects, relate to parts of them as good or bad, or try to reform or oppose them.

And referring back to the OP - how would you feel, MonF, if some Quebecois came and planted your teeth in your brain for your comments about 'his' slice of 'your' country? Just asking.

Then he'd be a psychotic and out of touch with reality, for the same reason as why your usage of this potential occurence is absurd in this context. I can describe it in five words: Quebec is not a nation.

I don't believe that I was being fatuous. Your argument about group behaviour and association with the place and way in which you were brought up is valid up to a point. However, it could be used equally to describe people that are brought up as christians, moslems, racists or cannibals. You could also extend it in another direction to include more parochial nationalism, such as... oh yes, those Quebecois again! "They are not a nation." There is a fatuous statement IMO. What does that mean except to say that their arbitrary slab of land mass is not afforded the same status as Canada by an equally arbitrary group of humans that decide such things. All geographical borders and constitutions are man-made and arbitrary.

It comes down to choice. You didn't choose your country, it is just there. You could conceivably choose to move elsewhere but not every state affords its citizens that privilege. Tell it to the North Koreans. Or the Burmese.

You are lucky to live in a relatively enlightened, progressive, democratic country. I am pleased that you are largely happy with the way that things are done there. Yippee for you. I am pretty similarly pleased with the way that things are done in the UK. I would change a lot of them if I could and wold take any reasonable steps within my power to try and nudge things in what I see as the right direction - which is pretty much limited to online petitions and voting - but hey, that's democracy.

What I do not do is hold up my country as intrinsically 'better' than any other simply because I live there. I can describe myself (and to a degree, identify myself) as a Nottinghamian, a Midlander, English, British or European. There are things about all of these descriptions which I like - but I am not proud of being any of them, no more than I am proud of being a 5' 9" tall human male with hazel eyes - it's just what I happen to be.

[Transgirlofnofaith]

I see that no-one has responded to my post, so that must mean I'm right by default, because no-one has refuted my argument.

I WIN!!!

Did you respond to mine?

No, because if you mean the post after mine, and before the childish inter-county pissing contests, then I mostly agree with it.

I see that no-one has responded to my post, so that must mean I'm right by default, because no-one has refuted my argument.

I WIN!!!

You can't "win" around here this is rationalia we just derail your furry ass

Not an image I want, thanks.

Well, mrenutt4, that did sound a lot like something else, so eww. Are you sure that you aren't secretly turned on by Syrup Kitty, my Avatar, and are thus transferring it onto me?

Your argument about group behaviour and association with the place and way in which you were brought up is valid up to a point. However, it could be used equally to describe people that are brought up as christians, moslems, racists or cannibals.

You are conflating personal choice with automatic associations. Fail. Just because humans sometimes make bad decisions in relating to certain things doesn't mean they should all be personally isolationist nihilists.

such as... oh yes, those Quebecois again! "They are not a nation." There is a fatuous statement IMO.

Complete bullshit. Quebec is an absorbed colony. You might want to base your posts on some vague sense of historical perspective. Fail.

I don't believe that I was being fatuous. You could also extend it in another direction to include more parochial nationalism, What does that mean except to say that their arbitrary slab of land mass is not afforded the same status as Canada by an equally arbitrary group of humans that decide such things.

So you agree with Henry Ford, then, and think that "History is bunk"? I have absolutely no idea how you write off all historical developments and social trends as "arbitrary", and think that everything in history is completely relative and unrelated to anything else. Is this some strange strain of Nihilism? Because I honestly have no idea where you're pulling all this weird stuff out from.

What I do not do is hold up my country as intrinsically 'better' than any other simply because I live there.

EPIC FAIL. I already mentioned the difference between chosen associations and automatic associations. For example, I could never say that I'm proud of Canada's mountains, because they have nothing to do with anything cultural. On the other hand, I can be proud of Canada's achievements in Hockey. But some people don't care for hockey. That's why it's called a chosen association.

[cowiz]

Yeah I thought you batted for Lancs
Hung any monkeys lately ?

That's Hartlepool, Co Durham - Holding a banana in his tiny little hand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_hanger

[Beelzebub2]

Anyone who has ever witnessed any kind of nationalistic wars, like they have been on present in this part of Europe, can testify how utterly stupid any kind of nationalism is. For me it's just another name for snobbery, chauvinism, conformity and herd behaviour in its worst form.

You can call me Croat, Serbo-Croat, Yugoslav, you can call me Tasmanian Gypsy for all I care! I certainly don't intend to identify myself with these people around only because of (unfortunate) fate that I'm sharing the same geographical coordinates with them. Just because we're all forced to coexist on the same latitude, share common last names, language and face whatever our forebears left us to deal with, that surely doesn't make me feel proud, more critical and guilty, in many instances.

[AshtonBlack]

Anyone who has ever witnessed any kind of nationalistic wars, like they have been on present in this part of Europe, can testify how utterly stupid any kind of nationalism is. For me it's just another name for snobbery, chauvinism, conformity and herd behaviour in its worst form.

You can call me Croat, Serbo-Croat, Yugoslav, you can call me Tasmanian Gypsy for all I care! I certainly don't intend to identify myself with these people around only because of (unfortunate) fate that I'm sharing the same geographical coordinates with them. Just because we're all forced to coexist on the same latitude, share common last names, language and face whatever our forebears left us to deal with, that surely doesn't make me feel proud, more critical and guilty, in many instances.

Well said!

[Pappa]

Anyone who has ever witnessed any kind of nationalistic wars, like they have been on present in this part of Europe, can testify how utterly stupid any kind of nationalism is. For me it's just another name for snobbery, chauvinism, conformity and herd behaviour in its worst form.

You can call me Croat, Serbo-Croat, Yugoslav, you can call me Tasmanian Gypsy for all I care! I certainly don't intend to identify myself with these people around only because of (unfortunate) fate that I'm sharing the same geographical coordinates with them. Just because we're all forced to coexist on the same latitude, share common last names, language and face whatever our forebears left us to deal with, that surely doesn't make me feel proud, more critical and guilty, in many instances.

Well said!

Yep. +1

[Transgirlofnofaith]

Just because we're all forced to coexist on the same latitude, share common last names, language and face whatever our forebears left us to deal with, that surely doesn't make me feel proud, more critical and guilty, in many instances.

Again? What the fuck?
I already explained that innate National pride doesn't make sense, and that national pride only makes sense when it's rationally based on something. Why the fuck do people keep not getting this extremely simple point?