Does Nationalism excuse ones behaviour?

[Transgirlofnofaith]

All countries have stereotypical jokes made about them. In American films more often than not the Englishman is a the Gay bad guy. The Simpsons go on about bad English teeth (so does Family guy) . But does 'Nationalistic offence' give somebody the excuse to write something like 'Grrr... If someone actually said that, then if circumstances would in any way allow, I'd put their teeth in their brain, or in their case, what passes for one. Grrrrr..... '

The original comment was a generalisation aimed at a stereotype, the reaction was specific and at an 'individual' (all be it fictitious I sincerely hope that MoNF was not referring to RP).

Well, I wasn't referring to RP. He wasn't actually calling us that, just quoting others. I just get ticked when it comes to Americans because the far right thinks it's funny to make stupid jokes and smears about us. And in that case, I respond with outrage. But I also have a problem with the "beat-up on America just because it's America" crowd. It's alright to lampoon the worse parts of American culture, society or politics, but I disagree with any sort of vast blanket attitude or assertion that they're crazed redneck scum. I agree with taking the piss out of Americans' inflated and excessive opinion of themselves when it's unjustified, but this isn't the same as condemning the whole country. Many great things have come out of US culture and politics, although in the latter case, the good innovations are mostly in the 19th and the first half of the 20th century, with the exceptions of certain cultural changes in the sixties. And I know that there are many decent and progressive Americans.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

IMO it is wrong to feel either pride or shame because of what you are. This applies equally to nationality, race, eye-colour or penis-size (actually it doesn't apply to penis-size - you short-dicked mothers should be rightly ashamed - I was just being placatory!)

Where was I? Oh yes. Accident of birth. There are plenty of quotes about nationalism and I won't bore you with them (or myself by googling them) but it all boils down to the fact that you are not your country and (unless you just happen to be president or king) have almost certainly not influenced the course of events in your country sufficiently to have any proprietary claim on it. You were born there and you live there but you could just as well have been born somewhere else and live there. You might even have been swapped at the hospital and accidentally ended up whatever nationality you are while somebody else's kid returned to your true parent's home in Chile! (Apologies to any Chileans listening - I am sure your country is very nice - Tierra del Fuego looks especially beautiful.)

It is fine to be pleased about the things in your country that you agree with and that you like. But it is utterly wrong to feel pride or shame for those things - they aren't there because of you.

And referring back to the OP - how would you feel, MonF, if some Quebecois came and planted your teeth in your brain for your comments about 'his' slice of 'your' country? Just asking.

[Pappa]

..but it all boils down to the fact that you are not your country and (unless you just happen to be president or king) have almost certainly not influenced the course of events in your country sufficiently to have any proprietary claim on it. You were born there and you live there but you could just as well have been born somewhere else and live there.

True... but you do chose to identify with a certain national identity (or not). You could (in most cases) leave and live somewhere else if you preferred.

I know people are essentially conditioned to be nationalist (or not) but indulging in national pride and also xenophobia and such like is still essentially a choice. I choose to indulge in a bit a national pride for a number of reasons.... partly for humourous ribaldry, but also be cause I am a Welsh separatist (if only because at heart I am a localist Anarchist, and separatism is the closest feasible option available to me).

[Feck]

People who wave flags should have them taken off them .

[AshtonBlack]

Just another convenient wrapper for tribal identity. Useful, but a source of pride? Sometimes but that doesn't mean it should trump rational criticism.
IMHO, nationalism is a natural extension of our genetic inheritance, a predisposition of in/out group politics.

Jokes and stereotypes are just that, words. Now unless it effects actions of others, I'm fine with calling the Irish, Welsh, English etc etc. If it's NOT a joke, then I expect evidence, just like any assertion.


Anyway, as we all know, the butt of all jokes must be directed at the French and Yorkshiremen.

[Feck]

Just another convenient wrapper for tribal identity. Useful, but a source of pride? Sometimes but that doesn't mean it should trump rational criticism.
IMHO, nationalism is a natural extension of our genetic inheritance, a predisposition of in/out group politics.

Jokes and stereotypes are just that, words. Now unless it effects actions of others, I'm fine with calling the Irish, Welsh, English etc etc. If it's NOT a joke, then I expect evidence, just like any assertion.


Anyway, as we all know, the butt of all jokes must be directed at the French and Yorkshiremen.

Oh no you didn't ,and in the same sentence as the French When you find a cave deep enough to hide in say Hi to Bin ladin for me .

[AshtonBlack]

Just another convenient wrapper for tribal identity. Useful, but a source of pride? Sometimes but that doesn't mean it should trump rational criticism.
IMHO, nationalism is a natural extension of our genetic inheritance, a predisposition of in/out group politics.

Jokes and stereotypes are just that, words. Now unless it effects actions of others, I'm fine with calling the Irish, Welsh, English etc etc. If it's NOT a joke, then I expect evidence, just like any assertion.


Anyway, as we all know, the butt of all jokes must be directed at the French and Yorkshiremen.

Oh no you didn't ,and in the same sentence as the French When you find a cave deep enough to hide in say Hi to Bin ladin for me .

I am a Lancastrian. Therefore all Yorkshiremen shag sheep.

[Feck]

Yeah I thought you batted for Lancs
Hung any monkeys lately ?

[Transgirlofnofaith]

People who wave flags should have them taken off them .

Now that is just stupid, honestly.

Where was I? Oh yes. Accident of birth. There are plenty of quotes about nationalism and I won't bore you with them (or myself by googling them) but it all boils down to the fact that you are not your country and (unless you just happen to be president or king) have almost certainly not influenced the course of events in your country sufficiently to have any proprietary claim on it. You were born there and you live there but you could just as well have been born somewhere else and live there. You might even have been swapped at the hospital and accidentally ended up whatever nationality you are while somebody else's kid returned to your true parent's home in Chile! (Apologies to any Chileans listening - I am sure your country is very nice - Tierra del Fuego looks especially beautiful.)

It is fine to be pleased about the things in your country that you agree with and that you like. But it is utterly wrong to feel pride or shame for those things - they aren't there because of you.

Now let me debunk this absurd piece of fatuousness. Yes, people aren't their nation, but humans a a species form groups. Those groups have their own character and behaviour patterns, and have characteristics of their own which do not relate directly to any one person in them, except for instances where one individual has a high degree of control. But even here there is some variation along the fringes and variety in how the orders of the heads of the heirarchy are carried out. So unless we were to completely change as a species and go live in the woods alone except to mate, then we would always be under the influence, or have knowledge of, the human groups around us. And the idea that just because we have not contributed directly to something means that it doesn't exist for us is as absurd as pretending that there is no such thing as a family, or a store, or a church, or a corporation, or a government, or a culture. We are immersed in these group environments by default, on the largest scale. As for the smaller groups, we can shoose whether or not to engage with them or to ignore them. Nations have various group aspects, and we can either ignore these aspects, relate to parts of them as good or bad, or try to reform or oppose them.

And referring back to the OP - how would you feel, MonF, if some Quebecois came and planted your teeth in your brain for your comments about 'his' slice of 'your' country? Just asking.

Then he'd be a psychotic and out of touch with reality, for the same reason as why your usage of this potential occurence is absurd in this context. I can describe it in five words: Quebec is not a nation.

[AshtonBlack]

Yeah I thought you batted for Lancs
Hung any monkeys lately ?

Monkeys? I believe that's Hartlepool in County Durham.

I assume you're a puddin' then?

[Feck]

I was ,Sheffield Now I'm up in Aberdeen with all the idiot nationalists

[AshtonBlack]

I was ,Sheffield Now I'm up in Aberdeen with all the idiot nationalists

and I'm down in darkest Dorset with people with 6 toes!!

[Animavore]

I'm pseudo-nationalistic. What I mean is I slag the Brits, talk about how great the Irish are (you know, because everyone loves us) and talk openly about going for a shit but, what I present is actually a parody of the Irish archetype.
The reality is my nationality is bleached out by my multi-cultural and anthropological interests, in which my own culture is just one of many on the family quilt. My sweeping knowledge of biology, which ties me in with every living thing on the planet and; my acute sense of the vast expansions of space and time, which make me a fraction of a blink in the whole scheme of everything so I'm not concerned with rigorously glorifying a nationality that is tenuous and transient.

[AshtonBlack]

I'm pseudo-nationalistic. What I mean is I slag the Brits, talk about how great the Irish are (you know, because everyone loves us) and talk openly about going for a shit but, what I present is actually a parody of the Irish archetype.
The reality is my nationality is bleached out by my multi-cultural and anthropological interests, in which my own culture is just one of many on the family quilt. My sweeping knowledge of biology, which ties me in with every living thing on the planet and; my acute sense of the vast expansions of space and time, which make me a fraction of a blink in the whole scheme of everything so I'm not concerned with rigorously glorifying a nationality that is tenuous and transient.

Pretty much the same as me.

[Clinton Huxley]

I would just like to add "Wooooaaah, Lanky, Lanky! Lanky, Lanky, Lanky, Lanky, Lancashire!"

Repeat ad nauseum until you pass out.