Guns Used.....cont

[Gallstones]

FBM

I think what I am hoping for is an acknowledgment from Americans that American gun culture and the widespread distribution of hand guns is a problem, costing thousands of lives each year.

The best method of dealing with this problem really needs a separate thread.

I'm willing to acknowledge that the widespread misuse of firearms in the US is a problem.

Misuse, widespread?
How so?


Misuse (define please) would be a problem.

Distribution can not be a problem.
Misuse (define please) can be.

Misuse = use in crimes. Also, negligence that results in accidental discharges, especially with injury or death. And then there's beating people with a gun when you could have shot them instead. That's just wrong.

Thank you.
Agreed.

[Gallstones]

--I'd be seeking total and permanent escape.

Gallstones

You do not know that.

Oh, yes I do. With certainty.

You are guessing.

Not in the least.
No guessing. Certainty.

The end is the end.
Yours will be too, regardless of how you get there.

[FBM]

Misuse = use in crimes. Also, negligence that results in accidental discharges, especially with injury or death. And then there's beating people with a gun when you could have shot them instead. That's just wrong.

Thank you.
Agreed.

Beating people with a firearm could ruin the finish, then you'd have to strip it and re-do it.

[Gallstones]

No, I think he was agreeing with the regulation.

Seth seems to agree with some regulation. However, Gallstones' "why" was in response to your specifically advocating "strong" regulation, which Seth has given no indication of agreeing with.

Do you think refusing guns to the diagnosed mentally insane is sufficiently strong regulation?

Denial is broader than this.

Being under an order of protection.
Having been arrested and/or adjudicated as guilty for domestic abuse.
Less than honorable discharge from the military.
Use of, and/or dependency on controlled substances or dependency on alcohol.
Having been involuntarily incarcerated for a mental illness.
Being a convicted felon.
Not a citizen or legal alien of the US.

For example.

I was just listing what Seth seemed to have agreed with. I'm not assuming that he agrees with all of the current restrictions unless he says so.

And seriously, less than honorable discharge? Medical discharge? Not saying you're wrong, but it seems unreasonable.

Not sure about Medical. Not remembering the exact wording right now.
It might say "Dishonorable" specifically.

[Gallstones]

Misuse = use in crimes. Also, negligence that results in accidental discharges, especially with injury or death. And then there's beating people with a gun when you could have shot them instead. That's just wrong.

Thank you.
Agreed.

Beating people with a firearm could ruin the finish, then you'd have to strip it and re-do it.

Polymer.

But shooting is so much more efficient. Besides, it's what they are purposed for, killing.

[Blind groper]

FBM

Let us leave aside the question of how the problem gets solved. As I said before, that really requires another thread. I could offer suggestions, but this thread is too damn complicated already.

No, all those people who currently shoot themselves with hand guns will not just decide to hang themselves instead. This is an impulsive action. The presence of a hand gun is a major factor deciding that impulse. Hanging requires a bit more determination. It also takes a lot longer, meaning the impulse will pass for a good percentage of the affected people.

For a depressed person who suddenly decides to commit suicide, the fact that a hand gun and ammunition is available is a big factor in both the decision and the implementation of that decision. Killing yourself is something that is not easy. To do it requires overcoming billions of years of evolution driving the instinct to survive. Most of the time, we simply cannot do it. A weak moment in the life of a person who is probably depressed leads to a suicide impulse. If a hand gun is readily available, then we have a tragedy. If no easy method is readily available, the death will probably not happen.

[Gallstones]

FBM

Let us leave aside the question of how the problem gets solved. As I said before, that really requires another thread. I could offer suggestions, but this thread is too damn complicated already.

No, all those people who currently shoot themselves with hand guns will not just decide to hang themselves instead. This is an impulsive action. The presence of a hand gun is a major factor deciding that impulse. Hanging requires a bit more determination. It also takes a lot longer, meaning the impulse will pass for a good percentage of the affected people.

For a depressed person who suddenly decides to commit suicide, the fact that a hand gun and ammunition is available is a big factor in both the decision and the implementation of that decision. Killing yourself is something that is not easy. To do it requires overcoming billions of years of evolution driving the instinct to survive. Most of the time, we simply cannot do it. A weak moment in the life of a person who is probably depressed leads to a suicide impulse. If a hand gun is readily available, then we have a tragedy. If no easy method is readily available, the death will probably not happen.

Stop it.
You don't know what you are talking about.
Depressed people don't "suddenly" decide to make themselves die. It is a meditation, planned and prepared for.
Method has been chosen and practiced in the mind before the event. Solution assessed.
It is never the gun talking.
It is the pain--like a bully.

You are trying to make it all clinical and solveable.

[FBM]

FBM

Let us leave aside the question of how the problem gets solved. As I said before, that really requires another thread. I could offer suggestions, but this thread is too damn complicated already.

No. You want to say that private hangun ownership is the problem, but you offer no solution. That refusal is due to a denial of reality. What you suggest is impossible in the current political and cultural climate, so it's a waste of time to even propose it. And it reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of not only psychology, law and politics, but culture in general. You willfully turn a blind eye to the fact that such an attempt would kill more people than it would 'save.' I'm not interested in following you to a pie-in-the-sky fantasyland. If you can't even prove that handgun availability is the problem, then why should I or anyone else jump on your bandwagon? It's not appealing in the least. It's too based in fantasy and the reality it would bring about is too bloody.

No, all those people who currently shoot themselves with hand guns will not just decide to hang themselves instead. This is an impulsive action.

Shocking to see so much confidence in knowing what thousands of other people are going to decide, especially when you are obviously so out of touch with their culture. So many people in other countries without handguns spend a lot more time planning and executing their own deaths than it takes to pick up a handgun and squeeze the trigger. The impulsivity angle is a red herring that you only bring out to deny elements of the full body of data that don't fit your scheme. Again, ignoring reality in favor of your speculative model of it.

The presence of a hand gun is a major factor deciding that impulse. Hanging requires a bit more determination. It also takes a lot longer, meaning the impulse will pass for a good percentage of the affected people.

And yet, it doesn't seem to be slowing many non-Americans down. And it's 89.5% effective anyway. Handgun use is less than 10% more effective. Another point you seem to be persistent and consistent in ignoring.

For a depressed person who suddenly decides to commit suicide, the fact that a hand gun and ammunition is available is a big factor in both the decision and the implementation of that decision. Killing yourself is something that is not easy. To do it requires overcoming billions of years of evolution driving the instinct to survive. Most of the time, we simply cannot do it. A weak moment in the life of a person who is probably depressed leads to a suicide impulse. If a hand gun is readily available, then we have a tragedy. If no easy method is readily available, the death will probably not happen.

And yet, in your own non-handgun-available country (and many more) the suicide rate by hanging is greater than the US suicide-by-handgun rate. Logic fail, dood. Give up. Sorry. Tilting at windmills here. No offense in the least to you. I know you mean well. But your ideas aren't grounded in reality.

Read: http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... ainty-bias

[FBM]

Mortality

All suicides
•Number of deaths: 36,909
•Deaths per 100,000 population: 12.0
•Cause of death rank: 10

Firearm suicides
•Number of deaths: 18,735
•Deaths per 100,000 population: 6.1

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm

So, about half by firearms in total, less after you subtract non-handgun suicides.

[FBM]

Blind groper, if I were to take your position, I would present something like this (my apologies if you already have):

Harvard Injury Control Research Center

Suicide

1-2. Gun availability is a risk factor for suicide (literature reviews).

We performed reviews of the academic literature on the effects of gun availability on suicide rates. The preponderance of current evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for youth suicide in the United States. The evidence that gun availability increases the suicide rates of adults is credible, but is currently less compelling. Most of the disaggregate findings of particular studies (e.g. handguns are more of a risk factor than long guns, guns stored unlocked pose a greater risk than guns stored locked) are suggestive but not yet well established.

Miller, Matthew; Hemenway, David. The relationship between firearms and suicide: A review of the literature. Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 1999; 4:59-75.

Miller, Matthew; Hemenway, David. Gun prevalence and the risk of suicide: A review. Harvard Health Policy Review. 2001; 2:29-37.


3. Across states, more guns = more suicide (cross sectional analyses)

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership rates, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and suicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997). After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, across the United States, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of suicide, particularly firearm suicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership levels and suicide across U.S. regions and states, 1988-1997. Epidemiology. 2002; 13:517-524.


4. Across states, more guns = more suicide (2) (cross sectional analyses)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and suicide across states, 1999-2001. States with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm suicide and overall suicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups. It remained true after accounting for poverty, urbanization and unemployment. There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm suicide.

Miller, Matthew; Lippmann, Steven; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership and rates of suicide across U.S. states. Journal of Trauma. 2007; 62:1029-35.


5. Across states, more guns = more suicides (time series analysis)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and suicide over time, 1981-2001. Changes in the levels of household firearm gun ownership was significantly associated with changes in both firearm suicide and overall suicide, for men, women and children, even after controlling for region, unemployment, alcohol consumption and poverty. There was no relationship between changes in gun ownership and changes in non-firearm suicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David; Lippman, Steven. “The association between changes in household firearm ownership and rates of suicide in the United States, 1981-2002.” Injury Prevention. 2006; 12:178-82.


6. Across states, more guns = more suicide (Northeast)

We analyzed data on suicide and suicide attempts for states in the Northeast. Even after controlling for rates of attempted suicide, states with more guns had higher rates of suicide.

Miller, Matthew; Hemenway, David; Azrael, Deborah. Firearms and suicide in the Northeast. Journal of Trauma. 2004; 57:626-632.


7. Across U.S. regions, more guns = more suicide (cross sectional analysis)

We analyzed the relationship of gun availability and suicide among differing age groups across the 9 US regions. After controlling for divorce, education, unemployment, poverty and urbanization, the statistically significant relationship holds for 15 to 24 year olds and 45 to 84 year olds, but not for 25 to 44 year olds.

Birckmayer, Johanna; Hemenway, David. Suicide and gun prevalence: Are youth disproportionately affected? Suicide and Life Threatening Behavior. 2001; 31:303-310.


8. Differences in mental health cannot explain the regional more guns = more suicide connection.

We analyzed the relationship of gun availability and suicide among differing age groups across the 9 US regions. Levels of gun ownership are highly correlated with suicide rates across all age groups, even after controlling for lifetime major depression and serious suicidal thoughts

Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. The association of rates of household handgun ownership, lifetime major depression and serious suicidal thoughts with rates of suicide across US census regions. Injury Prevention. 2002; 8:313-16.


9. Gun owners do not have more mental health problems than non-owners

We added questions to, and analyzed data from the National Comorbidity Study.

Gun owning households do not have more mental health problems than non-gun owning households; differences in mental health do not explain why gun owners and their families are at higher risk for completed suicide than non-gun owning families.

Miller, Matthew; Molnar, Beth; Barber, Catherine; Hemenway, David; Azrael, Deborah. Recent psychopathology, suicidal thoughts and suicide attempts in households with vs. without firearms: findings from the National Comorbidity Study Replication. Injury Prevention. 2009; 15:183-87.


10. Gun owners are not more suicidal than non-owners

We analyzed data from the Second Injury Control and Risk Survey, a 2001-2003 representative telephone survey of U.S. households. Of over 9,000 respondents, 7% reported past-year suicidal thoughts, and 21% of these had a plan. Respondents with firearms in the home were no more likely to report suicidal thoughts, plans or attempts, but if they had a suicidal plan, it was much more likely to involve firearms. The higher rates of suicide among gun owners and their families cannot be explained by higher rates of suicidal behavior, but can be explained by easy access to a gun.

Betz, Marian E; Barber, Catherine; Miller, Matthew. Suicidal behavior and firearm access: results from the second injury control and risk survey (ICARIS-2). Suicide and Life Threatening Behaviors 2011; 41:384-91.


11. Adolescents who commit suicide with a gun use the family gun

The vast majority of adolescent suicide guns come from parents of other family members.

Johnson, Rene M; Barber, Catherine; Azrael, Deborah; Clark, David E; Hemenway, David. Who are the owners of firearms used in adolescent suicides? Suicide and Life Threatening Behavior. 2010; 40:609-611.


12. The case-fatality rate for suicide attempts with guns is higher than other methods

Across the Northeast, case fatality rates ranged from over 90% for firearms to under 5% for drug overdoses, cutting and piercing (the most common methods of attempted suicide). Hospital workers rarely see the type of suicide (firearm suicide) that is most likely to end in death.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. The epidemiology of case fatality rates for suicide in the Northeast. Annals of Emergency Medicine. 2004; 723-30.


13. The public does not understand the importance of method availability.

Over 2,700 respondents to a national random-digit-dial telephone survey were asked to estimate how many of the more than 1,000 people who had jumped from the Golden Gate Bridge would have gone on to commit suicide some other way if an effective suicide barrier had been installed. Over 1/3 of respondents estimated that none of the suicides could have been prevented. Respondents most likely to believe that no one could have been saved were cigarette smokers and gun owners.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Belief in the inevitability of suicide: Results from a national survey. Suicide and Life Threatening Behavior. 2006; 36:1-11.


14. Physicians need to do more to help reduce access to lethal means

This commentary presents the overwhelming evidence that the availability of lethal means increases the suicide rate and argues that physicians need to take an active role in reducing access for potentially suicidal individuals.

Miller, Matthew; Hemenway, David. Guns and suicide in the United States. The New England Journal of Medicine. 2008; 359:989-991.


15. ED physicians and nurses rarely counsel about lethal means restriction

In one Boston emergency department, ED physicians and nurses believe they should counsel suicidal patients on lethal means restriction, but they often don’t. Psychiatrists working at the ED were much more likely to ask about firearms.

Betz, Marian E; Barber, Catherine; Miller, Matthew. Lethal means restriction as suicide prevention: variation in belief and practices among providers in an urban ED. Injury Prevention. 2010; 16:278-81.


16. Mental health providers can be trained to reduce the risk of gun suicide

The CALM workshops were effective in improving mental health care providers’ attitudes, beliefs and skills regarding lethal means counseling.

Johnson, Rene M; Frank, Elaine; Ciocca, Mark; Barber, Catherine. Training mental health providers to reduce at-risk patients’ access to lethal means of suicide: Evaluation of the CALM project. Archives of Suicide Research. 2011 15(3):259-264.


17. Suicide training in means reduction can be accomplished via the internet

This article describes HICRC’s National Center for Suicide Prevention Training, which uses the public health approach and includes training on means restriction.

Stone, Deborah; Barber, Catherine, Posner, Marc. Improving public health practice in suicide prevention through online training: a case example. In: Sher, Leo & Vilens, Alexander., eds. Internet and Suicide. New York: Nova Science, 2009.


18. Lethal means reduction strategies can successfully reduce suicide

This article summarizes recent additions to the scientific literature about means restriction policies and suicide

Johnson, Rene M; Coyne-Beasley, Tamera. Lethal means reduction: what have we learned? Current Opinion in Pediatrics. 2009; 21: 635–640


19. Veterans have high rates of firearm suicide

There are no differences in suicide risk among middle-aged and older male veterans and non-veterans. Suicide by firearm is higher, suicide by non-firearm is lower. It is probable that lower baseline risk of active duty soldiers (healthy worker effect) tend to be counterbalanced by the accessibility of firearms to these veterans.

Miller, Matthew; Barber, Catherine; Azrael, Deborah, Calle, Eugenia E; Lawler, Elizabeth; Mukamal, Kenneth J. Suicide among US veterans: a prospective study of 500,000 middle-aged and elderly men. American Journal of Epidemiology. 2009; 170:494-500.


20. There are effective ways to reduce suicide without affecting mental health

This introduction to suicide as an international public health problem examines the role of promoting mental health, changing cultural norms, and reducing the availability of lethal means in preventing suicide

Barber, Catherine; Miller, Matthew. A public health approach to preventing suicide. In: Finkel, Madelon L. Perspectives in Public Health:Challenges for the Future. Santa Barbara CA: Praeger Publishers, 2010.


21. Differences in suicide rates across the US are best explained by gun prevalence

This summary of the scientific literature on suicide in the United States emphasizes the importance of levels of household firearm ownership in explaining different rates of suicide over time and across states, households and genders.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deboarh; Barber, Catherine. Suicide mortality in the United States: The importance of attending to method in understanding population-level disparities in the burden of suicide. Annual Review of Public Health 2012;33:393-408.


22. Reducing access to lethal means can begin to reduce suicide rates today

This editorial in an issue of the flagship public health journal devoted entirely to veteran suicide emphasizes the importance of the availability of firearms in determining whether suicide attempts prove fatal.

Miller, Matthew. Preventing suicide by preventing lethal injury: the need to act on what we already know. American Journal of Public Health 2012; 102(S1):e1-3.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hi ... index.html

But it still doesn't change the fact that there is no bloodless way to take handguns away from the American public in the current political climate. I'm not one of those who would kill in order to keep my guns, by the way. I'm one of those who would simply manufacture my own, at least as long as there were criminals out there with guns.

[FBM]

But, as Pyrrho said, knowledge statements about inferential, non-evident metaphysical questions such as causality are a bitch. Paraphrasing, of course.

Guns and Suicide:
Correlation or Causation?
May, 2002
Mark Duggan
MIT, University of Chicago, and NBER
mduggan@midway.uchicago.edu

...Taken together, the results presented in this paper suggest that much of the positive
relationship between firearms ownership and suicide is driven by selection – individuals with
above average suicidal tendencies are more likely to own a gun and to live in areas with
relatively many gun owners. But because female suicide rates are less responsive to the rate of
gun ownership than are male suicide rates, it does appear that instrumentality effects also play
some role. And finally, while suicide rates have been declining in the U.S. in recent years, the
reduction in the fraction of households who own a gun does not appear to be the force that is
driving this decline.

https://bepp.wharton.upenn.edu/files/?w ... ion=public

[Kristie]

No, I think he was agreeing with the regulation.

Seth seems to agree with some regulation. However, Gallstones' "why" was in response to your specifically advocating "strong" regulation, which Seth has given no indication of agreeing with.

Do you think refusing guns to the diagnosed mentally insane is sufficiently strong regulation?

I am currently satisfied with the regulation levels in the US. Stronger regulations would make me happier, but noting is perfect.

[Seth]

This in no way addresses my doubt about how you can get statistics that removing handguns from the US public would reduce the number of overall successful suicides in the US. It smells of red herring.

I was a bit indirect.

Suicide rates depend on two things.

1. The number of suicide attempts.
2. The percentage of those attempts that succeed.

In the USA, there are about 220,000 attempts each year, of which 9% or 20,000 succeed. Of that 20,000, about 12,000 are hand gun suicides. The 'success' rate of attempts with hand guns is around 90%. (The 10% who survive are nearly all horribly maimed.) About 75% of all suicide attempts are with drugs, and only 2% succeed.

Now, it seems pretty damn clear that the percentage of attempts that succeed, if hand guns were not available, would drop very dramatically. The number of attempts would stay much the same, but a lot fewer would result in deaths.

When you consider that most suicide attempts are never repeated, is it not better if those attempts are made using drugs or other relatively benign method, rather than hand guns?

You're speculating, nothing more. Besides, the rights of the majority are not subject to being denied merely because a tiny minority of mentally ill people misuse handguns, a point that you repeatedly and mendaciously ignore.

[Seth]

FBM

I am not worried about what is 'the most lethal means'. I am worried about what actually kills the most people, and that is hand guns. Sure, a shotgun to the head might be even more lethal than the 90% killing rate of hand guns. But relatively rarely is a shotgun used, whereas hand guns are the most used successful form of suicide. Shotguns are not even in the same ball park.

That's because handguns are easier to use. But in their absence people will use shotguns or rifles (which are actually highly effective because the powerful gas discharge blows just about ALL the brain matter out of the skull) to kill themselves. So, if, arguendo, handguns were banned, suicides would simply turn to other firearms and you'd be on them too because you don't give a fuck about suicides, you just want guns banned altogether and you'll use any kind of silly specious and irrational argument you can think of to attempt (badly) to justify your hoplophboic intentions.

We are talking here of killing yourself. Not making a cup of tea. That act requires a lot of mental gumption, and much of the time the impulse is simply not strong enough. making it easy and effortless to kill yourself increases the chances of actually doing it. ie. the hand gun is the biggest killer. It is too damn easy.

It's not easy or painless enough. Suicide pills should be available OTC. You ever had to clean up after someone who shot themselves? I have. It's messy. And it's dangerous to bystanders. In one case I know of the suicide shot himself in the head and the bullet, a 230gr FMJ went through the wall into the adjoining apartment and injured a teenage girl in bed next door.

I'd much rather the guy had been able to go get a suicide pill from the pharmacy.

But that incident doesn't impeach anyone else's right to have a handgun, it just means that the suicide was a selfish and uncaring jerk.

The idea that someone who does not have a hand gun will kill him/herself anyway is a fallacy. They are most likely statistically to try drugs instead which normally fails. And most attempts are not repeated.

The fact that they may choose a handgun for suicide cannot be used as an argument for denying the rights of others. It's just that simple.

[Seth]

No, I think he was agreeing with the regulation.

Seth seems to agree with some regulation. However, Gallstones' "why" was in response to your specifically advocating "strong" regulation, which Seth has given no indication of agreeing with.

Do you think refusing guns to the diagnosed mentally insane is sufficiently strong regulation?

I don't think anybody is suggesting that guns be unregulated, even Gallstones. Guns are in fact the most regulated consumer product in the US.

The question is what is the purpose of the regulation? Is it a regulation intended to guide proper use and handling of firearms, or is it a regulation intended to infringe on the right to keep and bear arms by making it difficult, inconvenient or impossible to lawfully do so.

A regulation that says you can't shoot your pistol randomly in a shopping mall is obviously not one that infringes on the right to keep and bear arms, it's a regulation of the operation and discharge of a firearm.

The former is unconstitutional, the latter is not.