How is this shit possible? Woman refused abortion, dies

[Seth]

It's the same shit they are pulling here. Catholic employer or taxpayer does not need to pay for abortions. Therefore, ban them. Leave them only in Boston NY and UK. Ship women there for birthing, to be safe.

Why should they have to pay? If a woman wants an abortion, she can fucking well pay for it herself. There's zero chance that abortion will be made illegal in the U.S., as the Supreme Court has already ruled on that. The only question here is WHO PAYS FOR IT.

The Democrats, Progressives and Obamanuts lie each and every day when they say that attempts to strip abortion requirements out of Obamacare is denying women some right or other. It's not, it's just allowing the employer to decide what medical services he's willing to pay for and which the employee will have to pay for themselves. That's it.

You can have an abortion here just about any time you want one, but it's perfectly rational for people to object to being forced to pay for SOMEONE ELSE'S abortion against their will or religious beliefs.

You want to play, you have to pay.

[Seth]

The reason the abortion issue is "contentious" is because of the Catholic Church and the noise they'll make. Also, of course, the damage (real or perceived) it'll do to the politicians' votes and support if they support it, due to the malign influence of said Church.

Nope, it's because the Irish people don't want abortion legalized, so they have not authorized their government to do so. Why they made that choice is probably related to their strong and pervasive religious beliefs, but the decision is made at the ballot box, not from the pulpit. If they are a religious people and want to eschew abortion on a societal basis, democracy demands that their will be done, now doesn't it?

Those who are not religious and want to have free access to abortion probably shouldn't live in Ireland. It's really just that simple.

~Factually incorrect.

Factually absolutely correct. The Irish people elect their representatives and leaders, and if they want abortion to be legal, they will elect leaders and representatives who will make it legal. They haven't done so. Therefore, ipso facto they don't want abortion legalized. That's tough shit for women who want abortions, but last I heard, Ireland didn't have any fences around it to keep people in, and they are free to emigrate (or merely travel) to some country with a political system more amenable to their abortion needs.

[Cormac]

The reason the abortion issue is "contentious" is because of the Catholic Church and the noise they'll make. Also, of course, the damage (real or perceived) it'll do to the politicians' votes and support if they support it, due to the malign influence of said Church.

Nope, it's because the Irish people don't want abortion legalized, so they have not authorized their government to do so. Why they made that choice is probably related to their strong and pervasive religious beliefs, but the decision is made at the ballot box, not from the pulpit. If they are a religious people and want to eschew abortion on a societal basis, democracy demands that their will be done, now doesn't it?

Those who are not religious and want to have free access to abortion probably shouldn't live in Ireland. It's really just that simple.

~Factually incorrect.

Factually absolutely correct. The Irish people elect their representatives and leaders, and if they want abortion to be legal, they will elect leaders and representatives who will make it legal. They haven't done so. Therefore, ipso facto they don't want abortion legalized. That's tough shit for women who want abortions, but last I heard, Ireland didn't have any fences around it to keep people in, and they are free to emigrate (or merely travel) to some country with a political system more amenable to their abortion needs.

You are factually incorrect, because abortion in these specific circumstances is permitted.

The medical team were factually wrong.

Abortion is permitted in Ireland where the continuation of the pregnancy presents a threat to the health of the pregnant woman.

In modern medicine, this is a very rare circumstance, because most threats arising from pregnancy can now be managed very effectively with careful medical management.

[Cormac]

The reason the abortion issue is "contentious" is because of the Catholic Church and the noise they'll make. Also, of course, the damage (real or perceived) it'll do to the politicians' votes and support if they support it, due to the malign influence of said Church.

Nope, it's because the Irish people don't want abortion legalized, so they have not authorized their government to do so. Why they made that choice is probably related to their strong and pervasive religious beliefs, but the decision is made at the ballot box, not from the pulpit. If they are a religious people and want to eschew abortion on a societal basis, democracy demands that their will be done, now doesn't it?

Those who are not religious and want to have free access to abortion probably shouldn't live in Ireland. It's really just that simple.

~Factually incorrect.

Factually absolutely correct. The Irish people elect their representatives and leaders, and if they want abortion to be legal, they will elect leaders and representatives who will make it legal. They haven't done so. Therefore, ipso facto they don't want abortion legalized. That's tough shit for women who want abortions, but last I heard, Ireland didn't have any fences around it to keep people in, and they are free to emigrate (or merely travel) to some country with a political system more amenable to their abortion needs.

This gives the facts:

http://www.medicalcouncil.ie/Registrati ... ioners.pdf

Refusal to treat

9.1 In exceptional circumstances you may need to consider refusing
specific treatments to individual patients. This must never be
done on the basis of personal discrimination. You might consider
refusing specific treatments because, for example, you consider
that the treatment would not work or that it might cause more
harm than good. You might also consider refusing treatment
where you believe that your patient is unlikely to co-operate or
make the lifestyle changes required to make the treatment effective.
If you decide to refuse treatment, you must explain your
reasons to the patient and offer them an opportunity to review
the decision and/or seek another opinion.

10 Conscientious objection

10.1 As a doctor, you must not allow your personal moral standards to
influence your treatment of patients.

10.2 If you have a conscientious objection to a course of action, you
should explain this to the patient and make the names of other
doctors available to them.

10.3 Conscientious objection does not absolve you from responsibility
to a patient in emergency circumstances.

21 Abortion

21.1 Abortion is illegal in Ireland except where there is a real and
substantial risk to the life (as distinct from the health) of the
mother. Under current legal precedent, this exception includes
where there is a clear and substantial risk to the life of the mother
arising from a threat of suicide. You should undertake a full assessment
of any such risk in light of the clinical research on this issue.

21.2 It is lawful to provide information in Ireland about abortions
abroad, subject to strict conditions.4 It is not lawful to encourage
or advocate an abortion in individual cases.

21.3 You have a duty to provide care, support and follow-up services
for women who have an abortion abroad.

21.4 In current obstetrical practice, rare complications can arise where
therapeutic intervention (including termination of a pregnancy)
is required at a stage when, due to extreme immaturity of the
baby, there may be little or no hope of the baby surviving. In these
exceptional circumstances, it may be necessary to intervene to
terminate the pregnancy to protect the life of the mother, while
making every effort to preserve the life of the baby.

Now, can you adjust your rash and ill-informed statements?


Edit: Sorry - left out the key paragraph when I first posted - this has now been rectified.

[Seth]

Guess she should have stayed in Pakistan or whatever shithole 'stan she came from. I'm sure she could have gotten an abortion on demand there...

She's Indian you fucking ignorant buffoon.

Oh, right, Indian...and abortion on demand is available there I'm sure...that explains their overpopulation problem how, exactly? Sorry it's not a 'stan exactly, but it's still a shithole where the same thing would have happened to her.

So, she came to Ireland...why exactly? Did she bother to read the abortion laws before she came over? Evidently not, or she would have known what the rules are in Ireland.

If you don't like Irish abortion laws, then change them or leave, or don't come there in the first place.

Of course it'd be nice to know if the septicemia was the result of the delayed abortion or perhaps a CONSEQUENCE of a botched abortion done by a government-paid sub-qualified doctor. She did, after all, "die later," indicating that there may have been complications with the abortion, something that is fairly common but almost never reported by the press, particularly where it might implicate incompetence on the part of government doctors.

In any event, it looks like the inferior socialized medicine in Ireland has failed to provide adequate and timely care...again...just like socialized medicine too often does.

Maybe she should have emigrated to the U.S., where abortion IS available on demand in most states and the quality of health care is the highest and most advanced in the world.

The law and constitution allow for terminations in circumstances where the mother's life is threatened by the continuation of the pregnancy.

So, in this case, it was a failure of the medical team.

Maybe, in their professional judgment, her life was not in danger at the time she requested the abortion. Perhaps her fatal septicemic infection was cause BY the abortion, or was simply present before she came to the hospital. We really don't know the facts yet.

If it turns out to be true that someone said to her that Ireland is a Catholic country and that they cannot carry out an abortion while the foetus has a heartbeat, then this is worse - because it is simply factually untrue.

Sounds like an ill-trained public health service socialized medicine doctor giving out bad information. Pity about that. She should have emigrated to a country where doctors are qualified and you get to pick whichever one you want to treat you...like the U.S..

And as for your comment about inferior socialised healthcare - care to present evidence that this is the case? And by evidence I don't mean one case of tragic stupidity like we've seen here - but actual evidence - you know, based on statistical analysis and results of health policies compared to other countries?

Socialized medicine is by its very nature inferior. It must be because no society can possibly afford to spend unlimited amounts of money on every person who becomes ill or injured without bankrupting the economy, as the UK is discovering right now.

Here's a simple maxim to live your life by: Sometimes you die.

Society has no obligation to exhaust its resources or economy just to try vainly to keep you alive for a few more years. Live your life like it's going to end tomorrow, and when it does end, be thankful for what you had while you had it, and don't insist on stealing from everyone else just to assuage your fear of death.

I've got too many of my own medical problems to deal with to be able to afford to pay for your medical problems. Sorry, that sounds harsh, but, well, screw you, I earned my money and I earned the right to spend it on myself, not you.

[Cormac]

Guess she should have stayed in Pakistan or whatever shithole 'stan she came from. I'm sure she could have gotten an abortion on demand there...

She's Indian you fucking ignorant buffoon.

Oh, right, Indian...and abortion on demand is available there I'm sure...that explains their overpopulation problem how, exactly? Sorry it's not a 'stan exactly, but it's still a shithole where the same thing would have happened to her.

So, she came to Ireland...why exactly? Did she bother to read the abortion laws before she came over? Evidently not, or she would have known what the rules are in Ireland.

If you don't like Irish abortion laws, then change them or leave, or don't come there in the first place.

Of course it'd be nice to know if the septicemia was the result of the delayed abortion or perhaps a CONSEQUENCE of a botched abortion done by a government-paid sub-qualified doctor. She did, after all, "die later," indicating that there may have been complications with the abortion, something that is fairly common but almost never reported by the press, particularly where it might implicate incompetence on the part of government doctors.

In any event, it looks like the inferior socialized medicine in Ireland has failed to provide adequate and timely care...again...just like socialized medicine too often does.

Maybe she should have emigrated to the U.S., where abortion IS available on demand in most states and the quality of health care is the highest and most advanced in the world.

The law and constitution allow for terminations in circumstances where the mother's life is threatened by the continuation of the pregnancy.

So, in this case, it was a failure of the medical team.

Maybe, in their professional judgment, her life was not in danger at the time she requested the abortion. Perhaps her fatal septicemic infection was cause BY the abortion, or was simply present before she came to the hospital. We really don't know the facts yet.

If it turns out to be true that someone said to her that Ireland is a Catholic country and that they cannot carry out an abortion while the foetus has a heartbeat, then this is worse - because it is simply factually untrue.

Sounds like an ill-trained public health service socialized medicine doctor giving out bad information. Pity about that. She should have emigrated to a country where doctors are qualified and you get to pick whichever one you want to treat you...like the U.S..

And as for your comment about inferior socialised healthcare - care to present evidence that this is the case? And by evidence I don't mean one case of tragic stupidity like we've seen here - but actual evidence - you know, based on statistical analysis and results of health policies compared to other countries?

Socialized medicine is by its very nature inferior. It must be because no society can possibly afford to spend unlimited amounts of money on every person who becomes ill or injured without bankrupting the economy, as the UK is discovering right now.

Here's a simple maxim to live your life by: Sometimes you die.

Society has no obligation to exhaust its resources or economy just to try vainly to keep you alive for a few more years. Live your life like it's going to end tomorrow, and when it does end, be thankful for what you had while you had it, and don't insist on stealing from everyone else just to assuage your fear of death.

I've got too many of my own medical problems to deal with to be able to afford to pay for your medical problems. Sorry, that sounds harsh, but, well, screw you, I earned my money and I earned the right to spend it on myself, not you.

Please present facts, not opinion.

And, noone has asked you to pay for healthcare in Ireland.

You're still way off on how medical healthcare works in Ireland. Let me recap for you:

1. Private healthcare runs alongside public healthcare in Ireland. I have private insurance, and had an operation through my private healthcare last week.
2. You do have a choice of doctors here, even in the public health - although you might have to wait longer for treatment.
3. In fact, the public hospitals usually have a higher standard of care for advanced treatment in Ireland - and certainly in relation to obstetric care - this is because the public hospitals are the training hospitals - and our standard of obstetric care is amongst the highest in the world. In point of fact, attending a private hospital in that lady's circumstances would have been a higher risk precisely because they are not as advanced as public obstetric hospitals.

And as regards medical outcomes - the research does not support your thesis about the relative efficacy of private to public healthcare. The USA is not the leader in overall public health. Medical technology itself, perhaps - but that technology is put to better use elsewhere.

[Seth]

The reason the abortion issue is "contentious" is because of the Catholic Church and the noise they'll make. Also, of course, the damage (real or perceived) it'll do to the politicians' votes and support if they support it, due to the malign influence of said Church.

Nope, it's because the Irish people don't want abortion legalized, so they have not authorized their government to do so. Why they made that choice is probably related to their strong and pervasive religious beliefs, but the decision is made at the ballot box, not from the pulpit. If they are a religious people and want to eschew abortion on a societal basis, democracy demands that their will be done, now doesn't it?

Those who are not religious and want to have free access to abortion probably shouldn't live in Ireland. It's really just that simple.

~Factually incorrect.

Factually absolutely correct. The Irish people elect their representatives and leaders, and if they want abortion to be legal, they will elect leaders and representatives who will make it legal. They haven't done so. Therefore, ipso facto they don't want abortion legalized. That's tough shit for women who want abortions, but last I heard, Ireland didn't have any fences around it to keep people in, and they are free to emigrate (or merely travel) to some country with a political system more amenable to their abortion needs.

This gives the facts:

http://www.medicalcouncil.ie/Registrati ... ioners.pdf

Refusal to treat

9.1 In exceptional circumstances you may need to consider refusing
specific treatments to individual patients. This must never be
done on the basis of personal discrimination. You might consider
refusing specific treatments because, for example, you consider
that the treatment would not work or that it might cause more
harm than good. You might also consider refusing treatment
where you believe that your patient is unlikely to co-operate or
make the lifestyle changes required to make the treatment effective.
If you decide to refuse treatment, you must explain your
reasons to the patient and offer them an opportunity to review
the decision and/or seek another opinion.

10 Conscientious objection

10.1 As a doctor, you must not allow your personal moral standards to
influence your treatment of patients.

10.2 If you have a conscientious objection to a course of action, you
should explain this to the patient and make the names of other
doctors available to them.

10.3 Conscientious objection does not absolve you from responsibility
to a patient in emergency circumstances.

21 Abortion

21.1 Abortion is illegal in Ireland except where there is a real and
substantial risk to the life (as distinct from the health) of the
mother. Under current legal precedent, this exception includes
where there is a clear and substantial risk to the life of the mother
arising from a threat of suicide. You should undertake a full assessment
of any such risk in light of the clinical research on this issue.

21.2 It is lawful to provide information in Ireland about abortions
abroad, subject to strict conditions.4 It is not lawful to encourage
or advocate an abortion in individual cases.

21.3 You have a duty to provide care, support and follow-up services
for women who have an abortion abroad.

21.4 In current obstetrical practice, rare complications can arise where
therapeutic intervention (including termination of a pregnancy)
is required at a stage when, due to extreme immaturity of the
baby, there may be little or no hope of the baby surviving. In these
exceptional circumstances, it may be necessary to intervene to
terminate the pregnancy to protect the life of the mother, while
making every effort to preserve the life of the baby.

Now, can you adjust your rash and ill-informed statements?


Edit: Sorry - left out the key paragraph when I first posted - this has now been rectified.

Nope, no change. You have not presented any evidence that there was a "real and
substantial risk to the life (as distinct from the health) of the mother" at the time that the decision not to abort was made.

Given the fact that a doctor can be held criminally liable for making the wrong decision, I sympathize with the reluctance of physicians to perform abortions where the risk is not "real and substantial." Since we don't know if she was evidencing septicemia at that time, as opposed to contracting it after the abortion was provided, you cannot say that the decision of the medical professionals was incorrect. All you know is that she was denied an abortion while the fetus was still alive. My presumption would be, in the U.S. that the doctor I selected is qualified to assess the risks of the pregnancy, including septicemia, in coming to a recommendation for treatment. Now, with socialized medicine in Ireland, it's entirely possible that the underpaid, overworked government doctors were slacking and didn't consider the septic risk or did not detect early signs of septicemia. But if we grant, arguendo, that they were fully qualified and did all the requisite tests, then I would say that the septic infection did not appear till after the baby died and was removed. There are many causes for septicemia, including poor hospital hygiene or a pre-existing infection that was exacerbated by the abortion procedure.

So, until all the facts are in, I'm going to presume that there is no causal connection between the refusal to perform an abortion at one point in time while the fetus was still alive and the eventual septic infection that killed her.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that poor hospital hygiene and surgical practice caused by the inevitable short-cuts and shortages that occur in all socialized medicine systems is likely responsible, not the fact that her abortion was delayed until the fetus was actually dead.

I'm sure time will tell as the qualified (as opposed to you and I) people examine all the relevant factors and come to a medical conclusion about the cause of death.

[Animavore]

[redunderthebed]

Question Seth do you just come up with these arguments to yank people's chains?

Because thats the only logical explanation for your horseshit i can come up with.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Ain't no subject so bad that a personal hyperfocus can't make it worse, is there Seeth?

[Seth]

Please present facts, not opinion.

I'll present whatever it pleases and amuses me to present.

And, noone has asked you to pay for healthcare in Ireland.

Indeed. Problem is, Irish-style socialized medicine is part of the Obamacare plan, so I feel justified in commenting on the subject.

You're still way off on how medical healthcare works in Ireland. Let me recap for you:

1. Private healthcare runs alongside public healthcare in Ireland. I have private insurance, and had an operation through my private healthcare last week.

Lucky you, you can afford it...oh, wait, that sounds like what everyone was bitching about in re the US. Hm.

2. You do have a choice of doctors here, even in the public health - although you might have to wait longer for treatment.

Unless you present with an emergency of course, then you get what they give you or you die.

3. In fact, the public hospitals usually have a higher standard of care for advanced treatment in Ireland - and certainly in relation to obstetric care - this is because the public hospitals are the training hospitals - and our standard of obstetric care is amongst the highest in the world. In point of fact, attending a private hospital in that lady's circumstances would have been a higher risk precisely because they are not as advanced as public obstetric hospitals.

Or so you'd like to think.

And as regards medical outcomes - the research does not support your thesis about the relative efficacy of private to public healthcare. The USA is not the leader in overall public health. Medical technology itself, perhaps - but that technology is put to better use elsewhere.

Nice red herring argument. By using the term "public health" you mendaciously limit the scope of your claim. Sorry, not buying any today.

The US is the leader in providing health care and technology of the world, period. People from all over the world, including socialized medicine countries, come to the US to get care they simply cannot obtain in their home countries because of socialized medicine, which deems certain procedures to be too expensive for the system to provide.

The reason that our health care is the best in the world is precisely because of the free-market profit motive that drives technological and medical innovation which makes our standards of care and availability of service second to none.

Can everyone afford the absolute highest and best level of care in the US? No, of course not, but then again, TANSTAAFL.

People still get better care here than they get anywhere else because we DO have a form of socialized medicine which says that no federally-funded hospital may turn away a patient for their inability to pay. Will they always get the very best, top of the line, most expensive cutting edge treatments? No, probably not, but they will receive adequate and competent care, and the fact is that no one living under socialized medicine is going to get that topnotch expensive care either, because the socialized medical system cannot afford to provide it.

[Seth]

Question Seth do you just come up with these arguments to yank people's chains?

Because thats the only logical explanation for your horseshit i can come up with.

Are you really that clueless?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Are you really that clueless?

Talking to yourself?

[klr]

...

The Irish people elect their representatives and leaders, and if they want abortion to be legal, they will elect leaders and representatives who will make it legal. They haven't done so. Therefore, ipso facto they don't want abortion legalized.

...

Jeez, you make enacting legislations and changing the constitution seem all so very easy.

[Seth]

...

The Irish people elect their representatives and leaders, and if they want abortion to be legal, they will elect leaders and representatives who will make it legal. They haven't done so. Therefore, ipso facto they don't want abortion legalized.

...

Jeez, you make enacting legislations and changing the constitution seem all so very easy.

Nobody said it was easy.