Guns used for lawful self defense

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Guns are the great equalizer. Without them it would be back to the strong preying upon the weak

It's good to see you trolling again. Where ya been? Jail?

[FBM]

And what evidence do you have to show that those murders wouldn't have taken place if handguns were unavailable?

Half of all murders and 60% of all suicides are with hand guns. The USA is the only western civilised nation with widespread hand gun ownership, and it has a massively greater murder rate than other western civilised nations. Those two facts are not unconnected.

"Correlation does not imply causation." Please present credible data/reseach that established a causal relationship here.

Certainly some of those murders would have occurred without hand guns. However, the indications from what I said above are that the widespread availability of hand guns, combined with a sadly excessive gun culture, increases murder rates substantially. And then there are the studies showing that homes with hand guns have a 400% increase in spouse on spouse murders, compared to homes with no hand guns. Note that, outside the criminal killing criminal situation, spouse on spouse murders are probably the most common.

There is a similar increase in risk of a family member committing suicide if a hand gun is in the house. Most of the people on this forum with hand guns tell me it is for self defense. Yet murders of people at home by invading criminals is very, very uncommon. Spouse on spouse murders and family suicides are far more common. This tells me that, far from adding to safety, having a hand gun at home increases the risk of a family member dying.

Again, if this were a matter of a priori knowledge, we'd all have figured this out long ago. But it's obviously not. We need empirical evidence. Please link to data - not newspaper stories - that support your claims. Some of your statements above were debunked in the research I presented. Did you not read it?

[Jason]

I dunno.. If I was going to off myself a firearm would be my first choice. Double barrelled shotgun - just like Hemingway. It's just the best tool for the job. Also the United States is 38th on the list of countries by suicide rate.. so.. how does this even factor into your argument? It seems people in those other 37 countries find ways to do it without handguns.

[FBM]

Korea has the highest suicide rate in the world, or very near it. No guns. Go figure.

[laklak]

I dunno.. If I was going to off myself a firearm would be my first choice. Double barrelled shotgun - just like Hemingway. It's just the best tool for the job. Also the United States is 38th on the list of countries by suicide rate.. so.. how does this even factor into your argument? It seems people in those other 37 countries find ways to do it without handguns.

I asked that question earlier, it was hand-waved away. How surprising.

Double barrel is a good choice, very little chance of survival. My dad used a 9mm Walther P38, it worked well. If you really, really want to make sure a 4 gauge punt gun would be good, but a bit long to get your toe into the trigger.

[Seth]

FBM

My original reference for bear spray, which is now lost, was a recommendation from the US Wildlife Service. But the big point is that hand guns are not needed for defense against bears.

Unless the wind is blowing the wrong way when you use your bear spray.

They are not needed for hunting, since rifles are better.

It's not a Bill of Needs, it's a Bill of Rights. I occasionally hunt elk with a handgun, a Desert Eagle .50 Action Express, which works fine.

They are not needed for target shooting, since much less lethal air pistols are available.

Can't shoot IPSC or Practical Pistol or any of a number of other tactical pistol matches with air pistols.

, For defense in the home, they are not needed, for several reasons, but one good reason is that a rifle is better.

Complete bullshit. You really shouldn't present your ignorance as fact. Rifles are NOT the best home defense weapon because they are likely to OVERPENETRATE, sending bullets through walls and into neighboring houses and people outside. I use frangible ammunition in my FN FS200 when it's in the house for precisely that reason. Shotguns are most effective, but can be difficult to store and use effectively, particularly for young, old or frail users. As an overall defensive weapon the widest utility is given by a handgun.

The police need them, and I have no problem with the police having them. However, making them widely available to the public has meant 8,000 hand gun murders each year. A whole heap of people being killed for no good reason, and avoidably.

Wrong. If we ban handguns there will be up to two million MORE people victimized every year by violent criminals who are not victimized today because people have firearms, including handguns, for self defense, and use them that way.

[Blind groper]

On suicide rates. I said earlier that the USA is unexceptional for suicide rates, which is all you guys are saying now. The most common factor increasing attempts at suicide appears to be poverty, though there are many reasons. Where the USA is exceptional is not the number of suicide attempts, but the number that succeed. If you want to take pride at being good at something, be my guest!

[Blind groper]

Wrong. If we ban handguns there will be up to two million MORE people victimized every year by violent criminals who are not victimized today because people have firearms, including handguns, for self defense, and use them that way.

Proven wrong by the fact that every other western civilised nation does not have hand guns readily available, and does not have that many people victimised.

[Jason]

On suicide rates. I said earlier that the USA is unexceptional for suicide rates, which is all you guys are saying now. The most common factor increasing attempts at suicide appears to be poverty, though there are many reasons. Where the USA is exceptional is not the number of suicide attempts, but the number that succeed. If you want to take pride at being good at something, be my guest!

As I said, the US is 38th in suicides per capita in the world - that means successful suicides.

[Seth]

To FBM

On your references to Kleck.

He states that hand guns should not be restricted since that just sends a criminal to buying a long gun. That is fallaceous. The main advantages of a hand gun to a criminal are portability and concealability. A long gun sacrifices these. A criminal who want to take a gun to a crime scene will not take a long gun, because it is too damn obvious. If a person who is known to the police is walking in public carrying a long gun, he is rather likely to be pulled up.

Hand guns are the problem. Half of all US murders and 60% of all suicides.

So what? 2 million times a year crimes, including murders, are thwarted by firearms.

If a hand gun is in the home, it increases risk of spouse killing spouse by 400% and increases the risk of a family member committing suicide by a similar amount.

Lie.

Why is it that the gun enthusiasts here cannot see that as a problem?

We do see a problem, we just differ on the proper solution. The proper solution is to facilitate handgun ownership by law-abiding citizens and their right to carry them concealed, which factually reduces violent crime everywhere it's allowed. Otherwise, up to two million MORE people per year will be victimized and potentially murdered because they are rendered helpless to defend themselves. You consistently ignore these facts because they inconveniently debunk your false and mendacious propaganda.

I have no problem with long guns, and if someone is paranoid about a criminal invading his home, and wants a gun for defense, let him buy a sporting rifle or shotgun. It is actually better for defense, anyway.

[/quote]

Nope, you don't know shit from Shinola when it comes to armed defense, so your opinion is worth less than what we paid for it.

[FBM]

On suicide rates. I said earlier that the USA is unexceptional for suicide rates, which is all you guys are saying now. The most common factor increasing attempts at suicide appears to be poverty, though there are many reasons. Where the USA is exceptional is not the number of suicide attempts, but the number that succeed. If you want to take pride at being good at something, be my guest!

As I said, the US is 38th in suicides per capita in the world - that means successful suicides.

Hmm. New Zealand is 29th. Funny what fact-checking can teach you.

[Seth]

Tyrannical.

That is bullshit and you know it. Apart from the USA, the free world does not permit hand guns in the ownership of civilians. And we are free.

No you're not, it's just an illusion that your masters can take away from you whenever they like and there's nothing you can do to stop them.

[Blind groper]

The proper solution is to facilitate handgun ownership by law-abiding citizens and their right to carry them concealed, which factually reduces violent crime everywhere it's allowed.

And where there is a drink driving problem, we can solve it by facilitating alcohol ownership by law abiding citizens, and their right to drink and drive. That statement makes as much sense. The problem is hand guns and unfortunate gun culture. You do not solve it by increasing the problem.

And your survey result on successful self defense with guns still makes exactly zero sense. To use the alcohol analogy, if I were to ask 1,000 beer drinkers if beer improved their lives, how many would honestly answer that it was destroying their marriage? Few or none. Ask gun enthusiasts if their guns were ever used successfully in self defense and you will not get an accurate response either. Only an idiot takes that kind of survey result seriously.

[FBM]

What is it that makes Kiwis so much more prone to suicide than Americans? Maybe there's a problem within your own borders that would benefit from the energy you're spending vainly on trying to convince Americans how bad/stupid/wrong/murderous they are?

[Blind groper]

FBM

I do not really know why anyone would choose to attempt suicide. I have read several articles on the subject. One, by a Harvard researcher, says that would-be suicides do not actually want to die. They just hurt so much they want to end the pain, and they know no other way to do it. Unlike Seth, I feel very sorry for those sad people, and wish there was a way to help them.