2012 US Election -- Round 2

[Ian]

Who wouldn't want to keep ol' Biden around, just for the silliness?


My favorite is from 1:20-1:32

[Warren Dew]

The latest monthly employment figures came out an hour ago: 171,000 jobs were added in October, an increase in hiring from September's 149k, but the official unemployment figure rose from 7.8% to 7.9%.

I think this data is pretty much a wash, and both campaigns can spin it plenty to little effect at this point in the election, but let's hear what the forum's conservatives think. I wonder if we'll hear any more talk about number-fixing conspiracy theories? WIll there be new rants from Jack Welsh?

Both campaigns could spin it, and it is largely a wash. The 7.9% number probably still reflects some data collection bias, as Jack Welsh pointed out, but that's old news that won't make a difference at this point.

The Romney campaign has largely switched to the ground game at this point, anyway. Not sure about the Obama campaign; many of their supporters are spewing increasingly desperate accusations, but those might not be orchestrated by the campaign.

[Ian]

Why do you reject the idea that getting rid of free market capitalism is indeed the fundamental change he's trying to work?

Not sure about the Obama campaign; many of their supporters are spewing increasingly desperate accusations

Still living in an alternate reality I see.

[Coito ergo sum]

Why do you reject the idea that getting rid of free market capitalism is indeed the fundamental change he's trying to work?

I neither accept it, nor reject it. I'm trying to determine whether anyone who supports him knows what he's talking about.

From the various conversations I've had with people that support Obama, they don't really think it means much other than "fix it and make it better" and "make it all fair."

If you point out to an Obama supporter that he says he wants a fundamental change, and if you suggest that the change might be to move toward socialism, they most often will act scornful of the supposedly ludicrous suggestion, but they won't offer another. And, typically, they like socialism -- most Obama supporters think it would be a great thing if we went socialist, but there is a stigma in the US attached to the word so people react to the suggestion as if they have been slandered. Yet, look at even the conversations around here -- many, if not most, of the liberal Obama supporters defend socialism and descry capitalism, but then they deny that Obama is a fan of it (even though if you read his books, which most of his fans have not, but I have, he clearly thinks socialism far superior to capitalism).

[Ian]

You're contradicting yourself Coito - most of us liberals worship Obama and think he can do no wrong, remember?

[Ian]

New drinking game idea: every time a conservative here infers that Obama supporters are just sheep who don't understand what they're talking about and will simply support him no matter what, drink a shot. Every time a conservative here gripes about what they know Democrats would surely do/say in a hypothetical scenario rather than actually discussing the subject at hand, drink a shot. Every time a conservative here rants about the liberal media, drink a shot.

[Coito ergo sum]

Why do you reject the idea that getting rid of free market capitalism is indeed the fundamental change he's trying to work?

Not sure about the Obama campaign; many of their supporters are spewing increasingly desperate accusations

Still living in an alternate reality I see.

This is it! This is the typical reaction.

So, yes, maybe Warren is wrong about not rejecting the idea that getting rid of free market capitalism is the fundamental change.

So -- the question becomes -- what exactly is the FUNDAMENTAL change.

We are going to fundamentally change America -- that is what he said. Did he mean it? If so, what did he mean? Odd nobody bothered to ask him.

I mean - I'm not saying capitalism is the fundamental that he wants to change. I just find it odd that the cornerstone of the man's philosophy -- that we are not only going to change the US, but "fundamentally" change it -- at its heart -- at its core --yes? I find it odd that nobody who thinks the guy is awesome and cheered for that line over, and over and over again, even knows what is meant.

[Tero]

Coito, I think it was mostly the unschoolers that protested. They have control to age 14, they think they lose 15-18. I have the link elsewhere.

[Ian]

This is it! This is the typical reaction.

What, I was wrong to ridicule him for suggesting that Obama wants to convert the US into a socialist nation?

Yes, I'm happy that this is a "typical" reaction. Proud of it in fact.

What is your typical reaction to unmitigated bullshit? Oh right - you just answer the question while throwing in jabs at those darn liberals (see above).

[Coito ergo sum]

New drinking game idea: every time a conservative here infers that Obama supporters are just sheep who don't understand what they're talking about and will simply support him no matter what, drink a shot. Every time a conservative here gripes about what they know Democrats would surely do/say in a hypothetical scenario rather than actually discussing the subject at hand, drink a shot. Every time a conservative here rants about the liberal media, drink a shot.

I didn't infer that, and I didn't imply it either.

Every time a so called "Liberal" here calls Republicans stupid and pretends to have a monopoly on good sense, drink a shot. You'll be drunk in under 5 minutes.

Most of you do worship the guy. I've asked a bunch of people if they will come out and say they oppose anything he did. The main answer given is something to the effect of "he didn't go far ENOUGH to the left." It's like the job interview question -- what are your faults? And, you respond, I work too hard and focus to much attention on my job. That's the kind of "criticism" you folks give Obama.

[Pensioner]

New drinking game idea: every time a conservative here infers that Obama supporters are just sheep who don't understand what they're talking about and will simply support him no matter what, drink a shot. Every time a conservative here gripes about what they know Democrats would surely do/say in a hypothetical scenario rather than actually discussing the subject at hand, drink a shot. Every time a conservative here rants about the liberal media, drink a shot.

I like my booz Ian, I will play.

[Coito ergo sum]

This is it! This is the typical reaction.

What, I was wrong to ridicule him for suggesting that Obama wants to convert the US into a socialist nation?

Yes, I'm happy that this is a "typical" reaction. Proud of it in fact.

What is your typical reaction to unmitigated bullshit? Oh right - you just answer the question while throwing in jabs at those darn liberals (see above).

Unmitigated bullshit?

First of all, your typical reaction is not giving Warren the courtesy of meaning what he says, rather than something else. He didn't make a specific claim. He asked why I would "write it off." Not "writing something off" is not the same thing as accepting it as true. You, of course, knee jerk react and come rushing to Obama's defense like a White Knight -- even the mere mention of the question, you must stamp it out.

And, you say it's such bullshit. Have you read anything the guy wrote? Have you learned about what his core beliefs were?

I mean - I would be surprised if the guy didn't prefer socialism to capitalism. Wouldn't you? Don't most "Liberals" think socialism is more compassionate, fair, and egalitarian? Or, is that not right? Democrats are staunch capitalists! Make money! Be successful and conquer your industry! Laissez-Faire! That's the Democratic Party?

[Coito ergo sum]

Coito, I think it was mostly the unschoolers that protested. They have control to age 14, they think they lose 15-18. I have the link elsewhere.

Protested what?

I don't get what you're saying Obama wanted to do?

Obama wanted to make kids have educations up through age 18?

Or, is it that he wanted to make it illegal to home school after age 14?

What is this? -- hadn't heard of it.

[Coito ergo sum]

You're contradicting yourself Coito - most of us liberals worship Obama and think he can do no wrong, remember?

How so? Where did I contradict the obviously true statement that Obama supporters commonly act as if they think he can do no wrong? That seems almost self-evident.

Just look at the deafening silence around a host of issues - Guantanamo? Nonissue. Warrantless wiretaps? Cool now, because we have our guy in the White House. Indefinite Detention? What's another four years? Those guys are in a Hilton now, since the good guys took over. Extrajudicial executions of suspected terrorists without arrest or even charge? Hardly worth mentioning. We don't have to count every coffin on the news anymore -- remember when we had to do that? The news media thought it was so important then -- not so much anymore.

Democrats will extol the virtues of tax increases - they help the economy we're told. Then you'll cheer Obama whether or not he raises them. How about criticizing Obama for doing exactly the wrong thing? NOT raising federal income taxes in his first term -- and even asserting that he gave tax cuts -- supposedly to "help"??? Is he mad??? All the good times in US history happened when taxes were high! It's proven fact! So, raise 'em up! Right?

[Coito ergo sum]

Oh, and Ian? What's that fundamental change you voted for, again?