2012 US Election -- Round 2

[Coito ergo sum]

So, the quote about moving Jeep production to China is accurate.

See, this is the stupid little fucking game Romney and the conservative diehards are playing. "Technically, we never actually said Jeep is moving all production to China", when they very clearly implied exactly that.

You know what they "really mean." Romney's statements were accurate.

When you start holding Obama to what he "implies," I'll take this bullshit seriously.

And why would the story make readers believe that Chrysler plans to shift Jeep production to China? Because the Bloomberg article quoted the president of Jeep saying that they were considering doing just that.

Except the company has come out since and stated unequivocally that not only did Bloomberg get the story wrong, Jeep/Chrysler is actually expanding production in the US. They keep saying it over and over and over and over..."Bloomberg and Romney are wrong. Bloomberg and Romney are wrong. Bloomberg and Romney are wrong. Bloomberg and Romney are wrong."

But you just keep clinging to an obvious lie because that's what a good, loyal Republican does.

Oh, so now we're going to have to take the latest statement from corporate management as fucking gospel? When the same guy, the President of Jeep, comes out and says he misspoke, then you might have a point. The rest of the executives are running for political cover.

And, the only time you guys seem to want to believe a corporate executive is when it helps your guy. Romney accurately reported on what the President of jeep said. Even if some other Chrysler executive says something different, it doesn't make Romney a liar and it doesn't mean the Jeep executive is the one not telling the truth.

[Gerald McGrew]

Here's the analysis of the lie Romney and CES are trumpeting from the rooftops, even though they know it's a lie...

The ad miscasts the government’s role in Fiat’s acquisition of Chrysler, and it misrepresents the outcome. Chrysler’s owners had been trying to sell to Italy-based Fiat before Obama took office. The ad ignores the return of American jobs to Chrysler Jeep plants in the United States, and it presents the manufacture of Jeeps in China as a threat, rather than an opportunity to sell cars made in China to Chinese consumers. It strings together facts in a way that presents an wholly inaccurate picture.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... china-ame/

What's even more pathetic is seeing hyper-partisans try and defend this despite the obvious reality. It's really something to watch.

[Gerald McGrew]

So CES, what do you think the intent of this statement in the ad is...

"Obama took GM and Chrysler into bankruptcy and sold Chrysler to Italians who are going to build Jeeps in China. Mitt Romney will fight for every American job."

[Coito ergo sum]

LOL -- only a Democrat.... That politifact analysis is total bunk.

Romney said Chrysler is talking about moving Jeep jobs to China. The truth: According to the President of Jeep, they fucking ARE doing exactly that. Bloomberg reported it. The Jeep executive hasn't denied it, and the Detroit News said that it was "accurate."

So, why does Gerald and politifact call this a "lie"?

Well, because Romney didn't get into the "role in fiat's acquisition of Chryser." Of course, that is a completely different issue and does not render Romney's statement false, but since Romney didn't cast the Jeep President's statement in the light most favorable to Obama, then he's lying.

And, of course, somehow Romney is "misrepresenting the outcome" by "ignoring the return of American jobs to Chrysler Jeep plants." Of course, again, this doesn't make the Jeep President's statement false at all. It just means there is another aspect of this that can be caste in a favorable light to Obama. Obama supporters can say, "Yeah, the Jeep Prez said that, but because of the government, that's why we have American Jeep jobs in the US now in the first place!" Sure, Obama supporters can claim that -- but, that doesn't make Romney's statement a lie. It's true. There is just another aspect of the story that Obama could report on if he wants to.

And, Politifact says "it presents the manufacture of Jeeps in China as a threat, rather than an opportunity..." -- well la-dee-frickin-da! Imagine that? A politician making an accurate statement and casting it a light unfavorable to his opposition. That means it's a "lie?"

I mean, come the fuck on dude. Do we need to give examples of Obama making techinically accurate statements that are out of context and cast in a light unfavorable to romney, when it's possible to cast it in a light more favorable to Romney? Are folks on fucking crack?

[kiki5711]

The IRS regulations at play in 1996 were those of the Clinton administration's IRS. The big complaint in the article you cited was that the trust doesn't comply with changes to the law that occurred a year after the trust was created.

It was 1996 and Romney got to keep his in the nick of the moment because it was no longer available right after that, for the mere reason that it was being abused.

[Coito ergo sum]

So CES, what do you think the intent of this statement in the ad is...

"Obama took GM and Chrysler into bankruptcy and sold Chrysler to Italians who are going to build Jeeps in China. Mitt Romney will fight for every American job."

To argue that what the administration did with Chrysler was a bad idea, and that Chrysler is now owned by a foreign company who may well build Jeeps in China because that is what the fucking President of Jeep said they were looking at doing. It's intended to make people oppose Obama.

What the fuck do you think the "intent" of this advertisement is, Gerald?



What is the intent of this?

[Coito ergo sum]

The IRS regulations at play in 1996 were those of the Clinton administration's IRS. The big complaint in the article you cited was that the trust doesn't comply with changes to the law that occurred a year after the trust was created.

It was 1996 and Romney got to keep his in the nick of the moment because it was no longer available right after that, for the mere reason that it was being abused.

LOL -- so, Romney was supposed to know in advance that the IRS would change its regulations, and then affirmatively not avail himself of a perfectly lawful trust vehicle. Got it.

[Gerald McGrew]

To argue that what the administration did with Chrysler was a bad idea, and that Chrysler is now owned by a foreign company who may well build Jeeps in China because that is what the fucking President of Jeep said they were looking at doing. It's intended to make people oppose Obama.

If that's really your full, honest interpretation...then I'll allow it to speak for itself.

And the examples you gave...the first is a Super PAC, and the second is a campaign spokesman. Neither are Obama himself intentionally and knowingly misleading voters, as is the case with Romney. He is actively promoting the falsehood at campaign stump speeches.

[Rum]

[Coito ergo sum]

To argue that what the administration did with Chrysler was a bad idea, and that Chrysler is now owned by a foreign company who may well build Jeeps in China because that is what the fucking President of Jeep said they were looking at doing. It's intended to make people oppose Obama.

If that's really your full, honest interpretation...then I'll allow it to speak for itself.

No no - do tell. What do YOU think the intent is?

[
And the examples you gave...the first is a Super PAC, and the second is a campaign spokesman. Neither are Obama himself intentionally and knowingly misleading voters, as is the case with Romney. He is actively promoting the falsehood at campaign stump speeches.

LOL -- a campaign spokeswoman for the Obama campaign speaks for Obama. That's what a "spokes" woman does -- speaks for the person who hires her. Give me a fucking break, Gerald. You're being ridiculous. It's just typical Democrat nonsense -- Oh my! Oh my! Our opponent is lying because there is another interpretation more favorable to us that they're ignoring!!! Oh, the humanity!

[Gerald McGrew]

No no - do tell. What do YOU think the intent is?

Fucking shit dude....really? You need an interpreter?

LOL -- a campaign spokeswoman for the Obama campaign speaks for Obama. That's what a "spokes" woman does -- speaks for the person who hires her.

Therefore Romney is a racist. Oh wait...you also tried to tell us that saying blacks support Obama simply because he's black isn't the slightest bit racist.

I honestly think if Romney came out and said Obama was bin Laden's half-brother, you'd be here defending it.

[Coito ergo sum]

No no - do tell. What do YOU think the intent is?

Fucking shit dude....really? You need an interpreter?

I'm not a mind reader. It's anybody's guess what nonsense might be floating around in the cavern between your ears. You state your own case.

LOL -- a campaign spokeswoman for the Obama campaign speaks for Obama. That's what a "spokes" woman does -- speaks for the person who hires her.

Therefore Romney is a racist. Oh wait...you also tried to tell us that saying blacks support Obama simply because he's black isn't the slightest bit racist.

I honestly think if Romney came out and said Obama was bin Laden's half-brother, you'd be here defending it.

I never tried to tell you that blacks support Obama simply because he is black. I told you that (a) it's not necessarily racist to say that some black people vote for Obama because he is black -- some do, I am sure, and (b) I told you that I wouldn't blame black people for voting for Obama because he is black because I could sympathize with there being 44 Presidents, and zero of them being black - so, of course, black people would like that barrier broken down.

I know for a fact that if bin Laden was Obama's half-brother, you'd be on here defending him and arguing strenuously that people who would oppose Osama's 1/2 brother from becoming President of the US were racists.

[kiki5711]

Which just proves how biased Politico and the Washington Post are, considering the company itself has said it's moving Jeep production to China, just as the Romney ad says

Except they're not. They're expanding production in China (because they're selling more cars there), not moving it to China. Oh, and the CEO of Jeep-Chrysler says you're full of shit too...

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012 ... -to-china/

The quote Warren showed you stated "considering moving ALL Jeep production to China." The Detroit News article described the Bloomberg article as "accurate."

Message From Sergio Marchionne Regarding Jeep Production


by Sergio Marchionne


October 30, 2012 11:55


AM Chrysler Group’s production plans for the Jeep® brand have become the focus of public debate.


I feel obliged to unambiguously restate our position: Jeep production will not be moved from the United States to China.


North American production is critical to achieving our goal of selling 800,000 Jeep vehicles by 2014. In fact, U.S. production of our Jeep models has nearly tripled (it is expected to be up 185%) since 2009 in order to keep up with global demand.

We also are investing to improve and expand our entire U.S. operations, including our Jeep facilities. The numbers tell the story:


• We will invest more than $1.7 billion to develop and produce the next generation Jeep SUV, the successor of the Jeep Liberty -- including $500 million directly to tool and expand our Toledo Assembly Complex and will be adding about 1,100 jobs on a second shift by 2013.

• At our Jefferson North Assembly Plant, where we build the Jeep Grand Cherokee, we have created 2,000 jobs since June 2009 and have invested more than $1.8 billion.

• In Belvidere, where we build two Jeep models, we have added two shifts since 2009 resulting in an additional 2,600 jobs.


With the increase in demand for our vehicles, especially Jeep branded vehicles, we have added more than 11,200 U.S. jobs since 2009. Plants producing Jeep branded vehicles alone have seen the number of people invested in the success of the Jeep brand grow to more than 9,300 hourly jobs from 4,700. This will increase by an additional 1,100 as the Liberty successor, which will be produced in Toledo, is introduced for global distribution in the second quarter of 2013.


Together, we are working to establish a global enterprise and previously announced our intent to return Jeep production to China, the world’s largest auto market, in order to satisfy local market demand, which would not otherwise be accessible. Chrysler Group is interested in expanding the customer base for our award-winning Jeep vehicles, which can only be done by establishing local production. This will ultimately help bolster the Jeep brand, and solidify the resilience of U.S. jobs.


Jeep is one of our truly global brands with uniquely American roots. This will never change. So much so that we committed that the iconic Wrangler nameplate, currently produced in our Toledo, Ohio plant, will never see full production outside the United States.


Jeep assembly lines will remain in operation in the United States and will constitute the backbone of the brand.


It is inaccurate to suggest anything different.


Sergio Marchionne

http://blog.chryslerllc.com/blog.do?id=1950&p=entry

[Wumbologist]

Romney is parroting the Jeep lie because he knows that no lie is worse for him than the truth on his record regarding the auto industry.

[Coito ergo sum]

If Romney repeating a statement by the President of Jeep is a lie because another executive says something different, then the same can be said for your reliance on the other executive's statement. On what basis do you know that the guy you're relying on is the one telling the truth?

Bloomberg’s interview with Jeep’s president said the automaker plans to restore Jeep production in China, suspended in 2009, and is considering making all Jeeps in China. “Fiat SpA, majority owner of Chrysler Group LLC, plans to return Jeep output to China and may eventually make all of its models in that country, according to the head of both automakers’ operations in the region,” reported the business wire service.

Mike Manley, chief operating officer of Fiat and Chrysler in Asia and president of the Jeep brand, told Bloomberg, “We’re reviewing the opportunities within existing capacity” as well as “should we be localizing the entire Jeep portfolio or some of the Jeep portfolio” to China.

Two can play at the "big font" game.

Romney didn't lie, because he is entitled to rely on that statement, which Mr. Manley has not retracted. So another executive started doing damage control? So what?