2012 US Election -- Round 2

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Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Wumbologist » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:41 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote: Take that nonsense and shove it. I am far from ignorant on this topic,
I think you'd be better off feigning ignorance to be honest, if you've got an educated opinion on the topic and still come to such piss-poor conclusions, that's even worse. :coffee:
and I would be willing to bet that I know more about the Lily Ledbetter Act, Roe v Wade and the Constitutional right to abortion, not to mention the laws governing Planned Parenthood funding than you do, as well as the role of the President and Vice President in our government. Feel free to disagree, but keep your dopey insults to yourself.
I'll let the record in this and other threads speak for itself on the topic of dopey insults. Unless you'd like to tell me to go fuck myself too.

Not at all -- if a person is going to make the claim that the election of Romney is going to result in the elimination of abortion rights, then one needs to back that up. Romney says he's proLife, but he also said that abortion will not be anything his presidency is going to concern himself with.
At least that's what he's saying this week. The man has been all over the map with his opinions, he consistently voiced opposition over mandatory contraceptive coverage and then said that he is for every woman getting access to contraception coverage during the second debate, likely because he simply wasn't polling well on that issue. Who's to say he won't change his mind on whether or not to focus on abortion if elected? It's looking like he'll owe the religious right a lot of favors if he makes it in, after all.

And yes, the character of a president and his views certainly do matter, whether or not you think he can or can't do anything about it. Tell me honestly that you wouldn't make a big stink if Obama voiced an opinion you didn't like, that he had no power to move on. Say, if he supported mandatory euthanization of people who claim ultimate knowledge of a topic they clearly don't understand as well as they think. You and I both know he'd never be able to actually pass a law to kill you, but I don't think you'd be writing it off as no big deal, because he's not the Republican.
Moreover, to repeal Roe v Wade, we'd need a radical shift of the makeup of the SCOTUS,
Two far-right justices would be a radical shift.
and then a case would have to make its way up the ladder and be accepted for certiorari by that SCOTUS and the SCOTUS would have to take the dramatic step of actually reversing Roe v Wade which now forms the bulwark of four decades of SCOTUS jurisprudence. That is a tall order, and one that would take years if it even was to become possible.
And I guarantee that, given the means to do it, the far right would move mountains to accomplish this. We can't afford to give them the means and brush it off as not a problem because it'll still take some effort on their part.
Further, to repeal Lily-Ledbetter, you'd have to get the House and the Senate to both approve repeal. Not going to happen, as either the Dems will have control of the Senate or they'll filibuster it and require a 2/3 majority vote. Moreover, you'd have to have enough Republicans actually care enough to waste political capital on repealing a law which merely changes the start date of a statute of limitations.

It's not absurd -- it's reality. Whether an issue is important enough to worry about is directly related to how likely it is to come to fruition.
Whether or not they'd repeal Lily Ledbetter, we know which side of the table they'll come down on in future cases on the topic. It's not the side of equality.
Sure they are. The same people that oppose funding for planned parenthood generally oppose funding for medical procedures in general.
Show me the same large-scale assault on men's healthcare as is taking place on Planned Parenthood. Show it to me or shut up.
The issue we were talking about was "equality" for women. And, women being treated equally is not dependent on government funding. If you think it does depend on that, then you're suggesting that women are inherently unequal and can't be treated equally in our society without the government providing funding for Planned Parenthood. I think that is patently false, and that women can very well be treated equally without having Planned Parenthood funded.
Women are currently treated quite fairly in this country on the topic of reproductive health, in large part due to Planned Parenthood's efforts. They provide essential care to women who otherwise would not have it, much of which is important preventive care, and is a bargain considering how much it SAVES us on healthcare in the long run. Planned Parenthood's funding is a drop in the bucket to overall government spending, it's going to do jack shit to fix anything if we cut Planned Parenthood, an expenditure that accounts for about 0.0095% of the federal budget. It's not about fixing the deficit, it's about taking preventive care and contraception away from women who need it.

Maybe they wouldn't earn your vote, but women's EQUALITY does not depend on Planned Parenthood funding. Let's not confuse a thing of benefit to women with a thing that is necessary for equality of the sexes.
Equality doesn't always mean 50/50, dollar for dollar even steven. The simple fact is that women require more in the way of reproductive health services than men do. This need is met in large part here in the United States by Planned Parenthood, ensuring that women have access to the healthcare they need on the same level as men do, even if it costs our nation a thousandth of a percent of our budget to do so. It most certainly is an equality issue, and it's also a public health issue and an economic issue. Without Planned Parenthood we have higher occurrences of STD's, we will spend more on health care, trying to fix problems that could have been caught earlier, we will lose women in the workforce for lack of contraceptive care, and ultimately, women who did not get the care they needed, when they needed it, will die. All for less than a thousandth of a percent in government spending savings.
Romney is not against it.
The only info we have on the topic is that a Romney adviser that said he wouldn't have signed it as president. Romney has been asked if he would have supported it and been quiet on the topic. If he would have signed it, I'm sure he'd have no problems saying where he stood on it.
Moreover, again -- the Lily Ledbetter act doesn't make women "more equal." It changes the start date of the statute of limitations under the civil rights act for equal pay discrimination cases. The law still required nondiscrmination and nothing changed in that regard. Again, my question for Kristie was how would women, who she said were being treated equally now, be not treated equally under Romney's administration. She posted in response to that question the cartoon with the Ryan position statements.
It improved the ability for women to get justice for pay inequality. Give me a good reason why Romney/Ryan would oppose it, other than not believing that women should be able to defend themselves against income inequality in the workplace.
During both Republican and Democrat administrations. Roe v Wade didn't go away under W.Bush and he took no steps to try to get it reversed.
So? Romney's done everything in his power to make it clear he's not Bush.
I'd rather live in a succeeding nation with a broad, generally non-discriminatory middle class. Equal poverty doesn't do anybody any good, and is no virtue.
And yet you've done nothing to prove that Romney would make this nation succeed. We're still waiting to hear your explanation of how Romney's tax cuts add up and won't just put us another 5 trillion in the hole, along with trillions in additional military spending. I'm amazed at the doublethink in play by the Conservatives in this country who are FINALLY willing to admit that Bush's economic policies were a failure, but somehow think that another president who wants to cut taxes while increasing military spending will fix things.

The auto industry bailout was an unpopular choice when it was introduced but has ultimately proven to be a success. Romney was opposed to it, and his plan would have meant the end of GM. Romney made millions sending American jobs overseas at Bain, a practice they are continuing today as Bain-owned Sensata flies the Chinese flag over their headquarters while American workers train their Chinese replacements. I don't see how you think this man is better suited to handle the economy than Obama is.

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Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Gerald McGrew » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:26 pm

I had to wait until later to watch the debate on DVR, and on the way home from a late night meeting I listened to right-wing talk radio. Just from the way they were reacting, I could tell it didn't go all that well for Romney. Subsequent polling backed that up. Obama won the debate and once again, his memorable moments were positive ("the 80's want their foreign policy back") whereas Romney's were negative (bayonets and Syria being Iran's "path to the sea").

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Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Gerald McGrew » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:27 pm

Wumbologist,

That's the problem with trying to debate Romney's views on most issues. Both sides can point to something he said to support their argument.
If you don't like being called "stupid", then stop saying stupid things.

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Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Kristie » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:38 pm

Gerald McGrew wrote:Wumbologist,

That's the problem with trying to debate Romney's views on most issues. Both sides can point to something he said to support their argument.
I know it's not funny, but it is! :lol:
We danced.

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Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Tero » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:51 pm

Is it time yet to start asking if Romney is one of them aliens in Men In Black dressed up as a human?

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Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:26 pm

Wumbologist wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote: Take that nonsense and shove it. I am far from ignorant on this topic,
I think you'd be better off feigning ignorance to be honest, if you've got an educated opinion on the topic and still come to such piss-poor conclusions, that's even worse. :coffee:
I can't help it if you can't think straight. Muddled thinking.
Wumbologist wrote:
and I would be willing to bet that I know more about the Lily Ledbetter Act, Roe v Wade and the Constitutional right to abortion, not to mention the laws governing Planned Parenthood funding than you do, as well as the role of the President and Vice President in our government. Feel free to disagree, but keep your dopey insults to yourself.
I'll let the record in this and other threads speak for itself on the topic of dopey insults. Unless you'd like to tell me to go fuck myself too.
I would, and for the same reason I told Ian that. He insulted me, because, like you, he has a hard time keeping it from being personal. If you think I told him to fuck off out of the blue, you're wrong. Don't sling insults if you don't expect to be responded to.
Wumbologist wrote:
Not at all -- if a person is going to make the claim that the election of Romney is going to result in the elimination of abortion rights, then one needs to back that up. Romney says he's proLife, but he also said that abortion will not be anything his presidency is going to concern himself with.
At least that's what he's saying this week. The man has been all over the map with his opinions, he consistently voiced opposition over mandatory contraceptive coverage and then said that he is for every woman getting access to contraception coverage during the second debate, likely because he simply wasn't polling well on that issue. Who's to say he won't change his mind on whether or not to focus on abortion if elected? It's looking like he'll owe the religious right a lot of favors if he makes it in, after all.


You're not paying attention to what he's actually saying. Quote him.

Wumbologist wrote: And yes, the character of a president and his views certainly do matter, whether or not you think he can or can't do anything about it. Tell me honestly that you wouldn't make a big stink if Obama voiced an opinion you didn't like, that he had no power to move on. Say, if he supported mandatory euthanization of people who claim ultimate knowledge of a topic they clearly don't understand as well as they think. You and I both know he'd never be able to actually pass a law to kill you, but I don't think you'd be writing it off as no big deal, because he's not the Republican.
Supporting mandatory euthanization is a far cry from whether abortion should be legal or illegal. Obama has a lot of opinions I don't like, but the ones I'm concerned about are the ones he has control over. The fact that is or is not for or against gay marriage is not something I'm concerned about at all. When he was against gay marriage, and I was for it, I knew he couldn't do anything about it, so it wasn't something I criticized him much for. Then when he switched his opinion on that, it also didn't matter much to me because, again, he has no power over it.
Wumbologist wrote:
Moreover, to repeal Roe v Wade, we'd need a radical shift of the makeup of the SCOTUS,
Two far-right justices would be a radical shift.
Very radical. And, if you know a damn thing about the history of SCOTUS appointments you'll see a long history of things like, oh, the current Chief Justice voting to uphold Obamacare when he was considered "far right." Justice Harry Blackmun, a Nixon appointee, actually wrote the opinion in Roe v Wade. In 1992, after 12 years of Bush and Reagan appointees (a mere 4 years of Carter) and 8 years prior to that of Nixon, the SCOTUS had a chance to reverse Roe v Wade in Planned Parenthood v Casey, and it did not do so. 8 of the Supreme Court Justices at the time were appointed by Nixon, Ford, Reagan and GHWBush. One, Byron White, was appointed by a Democrat. That STILL -- 8 successive Republican appointments -- was not enough to get sufficient Justices to the Court that would reverse Roe v Wade. In fact, as I noted, Blackmun, a Nixon appointee, WROTE Roe v Wade.

Finding two Justices to radically shift the Court is not as easy as you might think. Just because Romney nominates them doesn't mean they're going to reverse Roe v Wade. It will be hard to find many Justices who will do that.

Wumbologist wrote:
and then a case would have to make its way up the ladder and be accepted for certiorari by that SCOTUS and the SCOTUS would have to take the dramatic step of actually reversing Roe v Wade which now forms the bulwark of four decades of SCOTUS jurisprudence. That is a tall order, and one that would take years if it even was to become possible.
And I guarantee that, given the means to do it, the far right would move mountains to accomplish this. We can't afford to give them the means and brush it off as not a problem because it'll still take some effort on their part.
Guarantee it all you want. It still doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. Witness: Planned Parenthood v Casey, which was moved up to SCOTUS, heard by 8 Republican appointments and 1 Democrat appointment. Roe v Wade withstood that. Now, we have several Clinton and an Obama appointment on the bench. Do you think we're closer or farther away than in 1992?
Wumbologist wrote:
Further, to repeal Lily-Ledbetter, you'd have to get the House and the Senate to both approve repeal. Not going to happen, as either the Dems will have control of the Senate or they'll filibuster it and require a 2/3 majority vote. Moreover, you'd have to have enough Republicans actually care enough to waste political capital on repealing a law which merely changes the start date of a statute of limitations.

It's not absurd -- it's reality. Whether an issue is important enough to worry about is directly related to how likely it is to come to fruition.
Whether or not they'd repeal Lily Ledbetter, we know which side of the table they'll come down on in future cases on the topic. It's not the side of equality.
That's bullshit. Nobody is suggesting women ought to be discriminated against on the job. That's what the Civil Rights Act involves, and no Republicans are talking about repealing it. For the love of Pete, it was the Republican Party that passed the damn thing in the first place. You do know that, don't you? The Civil Rights Act of 1964? More Republicans voted for it than Democrats. Had it been left to the Democrats, it would have failed hard.

Lily Ledbetter act relates ONLY to the statute of limitations. I know the Democrats try to sell it as if it guarantees nondiscrimination in pay. It doesn't. The Civil Rights Act does. And, that hasn't changed.
Wumbologist wrote:
Sure they are. The same people that oppose funding for planned parenthood generally oppose funding for medical procedures in general.
Show me the same large-scale assault on men's healthcare as is taking place on Planned Parenthood. Show it to me or shut up.
Easy, again, if you paid attention at all to current events, you'd probably know that the Republican Budgets that have been proposed have sought to cut $1 billion out of the National Institutes of Health budgets which would cut federal funding for cancer research, including prostate and testicular cancer.
Wumbologist wrote:
The issue we were talking about was "equality" for women. And, women being treated equally is not dependent on government funding. If you think it does depend on that, then you're suggesting that women are inherently unequal and can't be treated equally in our society without the government providing funding for Planned Parenthood. I think that is patently false, and that women can very well be treated equally without having Planned Parenthood funded.
Women are currently treated quite fairly in this country on the topic of reproductive health, in large part due to Planned Parenthood's efforts. They provide essential care to women who otherwise would not have it, much of which is important preventive care, and is a bargain considering how much it SAVES us on healthcare in the long run. Planned Parenthood's funding is a drop in the bucket to overall government spending, it's going to do jack shit to fix anything if we cut Planned Parenthood, an expenditure that accounts for about 0.0095% of the federal budget. It's not about fixing the deficit, it's about taking preventive care and contraception away from women who need it.
Hopefully, you can puzzle out the difference between (a) something that is "good" for women, and (b) equality. Remember, the question Kristie and I were talking about was "equality." Sure, if we give women all their medical care for free it would be great for them, but that's different than treating them equally -- don't you see that?
Wumbologist wrote:
Maybe they wouldn't earn your vote, but women's EQUALITY does not depend on Planned Parenthood funding. Let's not confuse a thing of benefit to women with a thing that is necessary for equality of the sexes.
Equality doesn't always mean 50/50, dollar for dollar even steven. The simple fact is that women require more in the way of reproductive health services than men do. This need is met in large part here in the United States by Planned Parenthood, ensuring that women have access to the healthcare they need on the same level as men do, even if it costs our nation a thousandth of a percent of our budget to do so. It most certainly is an equality issue, and it's also a public health issue and an economic issue. Without Planned Parenthood we have higher occurrences of STD's, we will spend more on health care, trying to fix problems that could have been caught earlier, we will lose women in the workforce for lack of contraceptive care, and ultimately, women who did not get the care they needed, when they needed it, will die. All for less than a thousandth of a percent in government spending savings.
Men "require" more in the way of prostate and testicular health care than women do, yet not providing them with free testing and treatment doesn't mean we're treating them unequally. Surely you get the point by now?

Not giving people free stuff doesn't mean we're treating them unequally (unless we are giving other people that same or equivalent stuff for free).
Wumbologist wrote:
Romney is not against it.
The only info we have on the topic is that a Romney adviser that said he wouldn't have signed it as president. Romney has been asked if he would have supported it and been quiet on the topic. If he would have signed it, I'm sure he'd have no problems saying where he stood on it.
Moreover, again -- the Lily Ledbetter act doesn't make women "more equal." It changes the start date of the statute of limitations under the civil rights act for equal pay discrimination cases. The law still required nondiscrmination and nothing changed in that regard. Again, my question for Kristie was how would women, who she said were being treated equally now, be not treated equally under Romney's administration. She posted in response to that question the cartoon with the Ryan position statements.
It improved the ability for women to get justice for pay inequality. Give me a good reason why Romney/Ryan would oppose it, other than not believing that women should be able to defend themselves against income inequality in the workplace.
Again, the difference between something being "good" for women, and the issue of equality. Two different issues. Try not to confuse them.

Women are and were able to defend themselves against income inequality in the workplace. You think you're discriminated against, call the EEOC and tell them. They will open a case and investigate. They'll either resolve it with the employer or issue a Right to Sue letter, and a federal case may ensue under the Civil Rights Act. Ledbetter Act only adjusts when the Statute of Limitations begins to run. That's it.
Wumbologist wrote:
During both Republican and Democrat administrations. Roe v Wade didn't go away under W.Bush and he took no steps to try to get it reversed.
So? Romney's done everything in his power to make it clear he's not Bush.
Bush was far more vocal about his Pro-Life position that Romney is about his. Romney has said he won't do anything about abortion during his presidency. I'm glad about that.
Wumbologist wrote:
I'd rather live in a succeeding nation with a broad, generally non-discriminatory middle class. Equal poverty doesn't do anybody any good, and is no virtue.
And yet you've done nothing to prove that Romney would make this nation succeed.
That wasn't what we were talking about. You butted in to an exchange about equality.
Wumbologist wrote:
We're still waiting to hear your explanation of how Romney's tax cuts add up and won't just put us another 5 trillion in the hole, along with trillions in additional military spending. I'm amazed at the doublethink in play by the Conservatives in this country who are FINALLY willing to admit that Bush's economic policies were a failure, but somehow think that another president who wants to cut taxes while increasing military spending will fix things.
I can't help it if you aren't listening. He has been just as specific as Obama has. Or, do you care to provide the "detailed" explanation of how Obama's plan adds up? Or, do you think that $1.2 trillion deficits is "adding up?"

They've not proposed increasing military spending. They've proposed not decreasing military spending and setting it as a percentage of GDP (4%, I believe). Cutting taxes will help the economy, as they did in 2002, 2003, 2004,2005 and 2006, and in the early 1980s, and in the early 1960s.
Wumbologist wrote:
The auto industry bailout was an unpopular choice when it was introduced but has ultimately proven to be a success. Romney was opposed to it, and his plan would have meant the end of GM.
Nonsense. It would have meant a managed bankruptcy reorganization, like those that have happened many other times with huge companies. The auto bailout was a gift to the UAW.
Wumbologist wrote: Romney made millions sending American jobs overseas at Bain, a practice they are continuing today as Bain-owned Sensata flies the Chinese flag over their headquarters while American workers train their Chinese replacements. I don't see how you think this man is better suited to handle the economy than Obama is.
I don't see how you think Obama is better suited. Perhaps you have some argument in that regard. Is it his ability to break $1 trillion in deficits every year? Is it the fact that we have about 8% unemployment, but it's only that low because so many people have left the workforce, and if we had the same workforce now as we did in January 2009, the unemployment rate would be over 10%? Is it the 47 million people on food stamps? Is it the decrease in average wages for the middle class, making about $4,000 less per year than 4 years ago? Better suited? Really?

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Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:29 pm

Romney takes lead in favorability ratings: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... ge-romney/

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Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:36 pm

Gerald McGrew wrote:I had to wait until later to watch the debate on DVR, and on the way home from a late night meeting I listened to right-wing talk radio. Just from the way they were reacting, I could tell it didn't go all that well for Romney. Subsequent polling backed that up. Obama won the debate and once again, his memorable moments were positive ("the 80's want their foreign policy back") whereas Romney's were negative (bayonets and Syria being Iran's "path to the sea").

Image

Context doesn't matter when talking about Romney, right?

He was talking about Syria's funding of Hezbolla in Lebanon, and the path to the Mediterranean Sea (relative to Israel). He inartfully referred to "the sea" but, it is doubtful he doesn't know that Iran borders the sea. He has referred in other speeches to Iran, the Gulf, the Straights of Hormuz, etc. Do you really think he didn't know that Iran had a coastline?

I mean - he deserves getting ripped on for it, for sure. It was poorly worded and dopey. Candidates say dopey things sometimes. So, it happens. 57 states? Hawaii is in Asia? Intercontinental railroads?

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Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Santa_Claus » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:55 pm

Gerald McGrew wrote: Image
I missed the Syria is the route to the sea thing :hehe: .

What a knob :fp:
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Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Santa_Claus » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:00 pm

BTW - I would vote for Mitt.........on Foreign Policy he WILL be a moron - but the USA has plenty of form on that, but economically Obama doesn't have it (great ideas / good intentions though - just got dealt a very bad hand, and played it badly) - so I would vote with my bank account, even if that will involve buggering up the long term prospects of the US even more.

Holding my nose though - my bet is that he will win and that a lot of those who will vote for him won't admit it (as happened with Maggie T in the UK).
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Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Gerald McGrew » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:50 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:Context doesn't matter when talking about Romney, right?

He was talking about Syria's funding of Hezbolla in Lebanon, and the path to the Mediterranean Sea (relative to Israel). He inartfully referred to "the sea" but, it is doubtful he doesn't know that Iran borders the sea. He has referred in other speeches to Iran, the Gulf, the Straights of Hormuz, etc. Do you really think he didn't know that Iran had a coastline?

I mean - he deserves getting ripped on for it, for sure. It was poorly worded and dopey. Candidates say dopey things sometimes. So, it happens. 57 states? Hawaii is in Asia? Intercontinental railroads?
So....I rip on Romney for saying it, you rip on me for making fun of him, and then agree that Romney deserves to be ripped on?
If you don't like being called "stupid", then stop saying stupid things.

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Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by kiki5711 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:40 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:Romney takes lead in favorability ratings: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... ge-romney/

you have NO idea who ownes the Washington Times, do you? :bored: :bored:

they're just as fun as Fox News :smug: :smug:

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Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by kiki5711 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:44 pm

Santa_Claus wrote:BTW - I would vote for Mitt.........on Foreign Policy he WILL be a moron - but the USA has plenty of form on that, but economically Obama doesn't have it (great ideas / good intentions though - just got dealt a very bad hand, and played it badly) - so I would vote with my bank account, even if that will involve buggering up the long term prospects of the US even more.

Holding my nose though - my bet is that he will win and that a lot of those who will vote for him won't admit it (as happened with Maggie T in the UK).

I just don't understand? what exactly do you think or know, that Mitt will do, to improve the economy?

Do you know something the rest of us don't?

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Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Tero » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:50 pm

Pretty much the only thing we know is he will mess with taxes and chip away at Obamacare. And medicare. Vouchers and shit.

Then he's going to lead (=ignore allies and culture) in forrin' affairs.

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Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by kiki5711 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:28 pm

well, know this for sure, he never let's a business opportunity fly bye if there's money in it. It don't matter where or how, as long as it turns a profit. I don't know exactly how that spells out "economic success" for USA though?

Romney's China Investments Called Out, Underestimated By Obama

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/2 ... de=1566940

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