2012 US Election -- Round 2

[FBM]

I saw stats a little while ago that showed a long list of countries and their preference between Obama and Romney. Only one country liked Romney better: Pakistan.

[Santa_Claus]

So, Ian, how does it feel to know that ships are obsolete?

Also that aircraft carriers aren't ships, as aren't "ships that go underwater".

I quite liked Obama's line that the US also had more Bayonets and Horses in 1916(?) .

Not sure how the US Voters would read that exchange (and surrounding comments) - my take was that Obama was calling Mitt a clueless idiot.

FWIW, I think nobody lost (which was all that Mitt had to acheive), what I was struck by was that Mitt had rolled back on his previous positions / comments and had decided to support 99.99% of what Obama had done (except he will be shouting a bit louder ).....am not sure if Obama got accross the point that the current Iran sanctions (which are having an effect) would never have been acheived without the Obama level of engagement with other countries - allies and not. Shouting Yeeha! at the sidelines only gets ya so far.

IMO the Obama approach on US Foreign Policy has not only been smart but also been better for the US long term interests - but of course the results won't show for a generation (and only then if the US does not resort to Cowboy shoot 'em up diplomacy).

However I did not see all the debate, I would have liked Obama to have thrown in a jibe about supporting womens rights abroad in Muslim Countries (which he did mention) and in the US .

[Santa_Claus]

Oh and I also liked Obama mentioning (twice) that Mitt had been making money from trading with Iran in the last few years (via China).

[Kristie]

However I did not see all the debate, I would have liked Obama to have thrown in a jibe about supporting womens rights abroad in Muslim Countries (which he did mention) and in the US .

I thought this too. Romney kept mentioning women needing to be treated as equals in other countries. I kept wanting to scream. Other countries need to treat women as equals, but not the US?!

[Ian]

So, Ian, how does it feel to know that ships are obsolete?

Also that aircraft carriers aren't ships, as aren't "ships that go underwater".

Wow, is that the best you could come up with? Free advice: if your spin sucks that bad, just don't post anything.

[FBM]

I wish Obama had asked him some things about the origins of the universe, whether or not jeebus visited N. America, which of the angels did God send to create earth, why he didn't know whether or not there were humans here before asking them, what the weather is like on planet/star Kolob, etc.

[Coito ergo sum]

So, Ian, how does it feel to know that ships are obsolete?

Also that aircraft carriers aren't ships, as aren't "ships that go underwater".

Wow, is that the best you could come up with? Free advice: if your spin sucks that bad, just don't post anything.

I think Obama's point is well taken in principle. Obviously, discontinuing weapons systems may well be warranted, if we're discontinuing obsolete weapons like muskets and horses, right? Sure.

The real question for debate is whether or not that is what is happening. Do we have 278 or 285 ships because ships are like muskets and horses? Or, have we let our Navy shrink to levels that we ought not let it shrink to?

I don't pretend to understand what is required for naval capability, and in this case, from what I have read we have the most powerful Navy in the world. 11 aircraft carriers, and I don't think any other nation has more than 2. China just commissioned its first carrier, which is a refurbished Ukrainian carrier. Moreover, as I understand Romney's proposal to build new ships, we'd maybe have 20 more ships under his plan than Obama's plan, and I don't know that that can be claimed to be so much a material difference. I'm not sure, but it doesn't sound particularly monumental in terms of an increase.

Also, this is the end of Obama's first term and it takes a few years for ships to be built and commissioned. We can't just poof them into existence, and the Navy was on the reduction trend long before Obama took office. To turn that around would require legislation, authorizations, construction and commissioning, etc., and it doesn't look like W.Bush was building so many more ships than Obama is building -- maybe marginally more.

So, at this point, I'm going to disagree with Romney here. I think it's a literally accurate point, but taken out of context to score cheap points. I can't see comparing the 2012 US military to the 1916 battleship and gunboat style navy.

[Coito ergo sum]

I wish Obama had asked him some things about the origins of the universe, whether or not jeebus visited N. America, which of the angels did God send to create earth, why he didn't know whether or not there were humans here before asking them, what the weather is like on planet/star Kolob, etc.

Romney doesn't deny the Big Bang theory or the theory of evolution, he would probably say that his faith is that Jesus did visit North America, but then again, Obama is a Christian and would probably say that he believes Jesus died for our sins and was crucified, put in tomb, and was resurrected. The Mormon religion is made up, but so is Christianity, which Obama is. I know we'd like to think he's "wink wink" really an atheist, but just has to say he's a Christian. However, there is really nothing at all to substantiate that view of it.

[Coito ergo sum]

However I did not see all the debate, I would have liked Obama to have thrown in a jibe about supporting womens rights abroad in Muslim Countries (which he did mention) and in the US .

I thought this too. Romney kept mentioning women needing to be treated as equals in other countries. I kept wanting to scream. Other countries need to treat women as equals, but not the US?!

You are treated as equals in the US. Don't go all Apelust on me now, Kristie....

[Coito ergo sum]

Oh and I also liked Obama mentioning (twice) that Mitt had been making money from trading with Iran in the last few years (via China).

So that I don't have to do da googles on this -- can you explain how this actually occurred? Trading with Iran, even indirectly, is a crime. It's like an American traveling to Cuba and spending money there via a flight from Toronto -- still a violation of the Embargo.

[Coito ergo sum]

So, Ian, how does it feel to know that ships are obsolete?

Also that aircraft carriers aren't ships, as aren't "ships that go underwater".

what I was struck by was that Mitt had rolled back on his previous positions .

Which positions are you referring to here. I would like to see this substantiated by juxtaposing (a) the position expressed last night, vs (b) a position expressed at a previous time.

[Ian]

"The US battle fleet is larger than the next 13 navies combined, and 11 of those 13 navies belong to allies and friends." - Robert Gates, Secretary of Defense, 2009

The Navy's budget has only gone up since 2009, btw. And the size of the fleet isn't the same as its capabilities, especially compared to many of those other fleets. I could get into more detailed comparisons, but I think it should be obvious enough that the US Navy rules every ocean in the world beyond any question.

Of note: as part of Obama's East Asia "pivot", his 2013 national military request moves funding from the Army and Marines to favor the Navy, but Congress has resisted this.

[FBM]

I wish Obama had asked him some things about the origins of the universe, whether or not jeebus visited N. America, which of the angels did God send to create earth, why he didn't know whether or not there were humans here before asking them, what the weather is like on planet/star Kolob, etc.

Romney doesn't deny the Big Bang theory or the theory of evolution, he would probably say that his faith is that Jesus did visit North America, but then again, Obama is a Christian and would probably say that he believes Jesus died for our sins and was crucified, put in tomb, and was resurrected. The Mormon religion is made up, but so is Christianity, which Obama is. I know we'd like to think he's "wink wink" really an atheist, but just has to say he's a Christian. However, there is really nothing at all to substantiate that view of it.

The religious right until recently held that the LDS was a cult that promoted heretical teachings/beliefs. That is, until one of them stepped up to the Republican candidacy. If the religious electorate were to focus for just a few minutes on some of the whack-out shit Mormons believe, they'd see it in the same light as Scientology and abandon ship. xtian delusians are acceptable only because they're so standardized. Mormon shit is way off the scale, and I'm pretty sure millions would refuse to vote for a blatant heretic. All this PC "respect my beliefs" bullshit is the only reason Romney stands a snowball's chance in hell, much less able to give Obama a run for his money.

Edit: If Romney agrees with the Big Bang theory and evolution, then he's a heretic according to Mormon orthodoxy, which states that God sent some angels to create earth, and they created Man without is knowledge or instruction.

[Kristie]

However I did not see all the debate, I would have liked Obama to have thrown in a jibe about supporting womens rights abroad in Muslim Countries (which he did mention) and in the US .

I thought this too. Romney kept mentioning women needing to be treated as equals in other countries. I kept wanting to scream. Other countries need to treat women as equals, but not the US?!

You are treated as equals in the US. Don't go all Apelust on me now, Kristie....

We currently are (for the most part), but that will change when our rights get cut under a Romeny administration.

[Coito ergo sum]

I wish Obama had asked him some things about the origins of the universe, whether or not jeebus visited N. America, which of the angels did God send to create earth, why he didn't know whether or not there were humans here before asking them, what the weather is like on planet/star Kolob, etc.

Romney doesn't deny the Big Bang theory or the theory of evolution, he would probably say that his faith is that Jesus did visit North America, but then again, Obama is a Christian and would probably say that he believes Jesus died for our sins and was crucified, put in tomb, and was resurrected. The Mormon religion is made up, but so is Christianity, which Obama is. I know we'd like to think he's "wink wink" really an atheist, but just has to say he's a Christian. However, there is really nothing at all to substantiate that view of it.

The religious right until recently held that the LDS was a cult that promoted heretical teachings/beliefs.

some small minority did. Most listened to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir on national television all the time without thinking the children were captured by a cult. Mos people just thought they were a branch of Christians that they didn't understand -- hardly anybody outside of Mormons themselves knows much about them. And, the Christian fundamentalists that think the LDS is a cult also think Catholics are a Cult and Jews go to hell for being Jewish.

That is, until one of them stepped up to the Republican candidacy. If the religious electorate were to focus for just a few minutes on some of the whack-out shit Mormons believe, they'd see it in the same light as Scientology and abandon ship. xtian delusians are acceptable only because they're so standardized. Mormon shit is way off the scale, and I'm pretty sure millions would refuse to vote for a blatant heretic. All this PC "respect my beliefs" bullshit is the only reason Romney stands a snowball's chance in hell, much less able to give Obama a run for his money.

I've read the Book of Mormon cover to cover and I know a lot about the religion in general. The only reason you think it's "so off the scale" is because Christianity is so familiar to you, and Mormonism so foreign. It's not any different.

I'm happy to see a Mormon as a GOP candidate because it illustrates that the hard Christian right - the old Falwell Republicans the Pat Robertson Republicans -- don't have as much grip on the GOP as we might have thought. They've had to swallow their objections. Good.

Edit: If Romney agrees with the Big Bang theory and evolution, then he's a heretic according to Mormon orthodoxy, which states that God sent some angels to create earth, and they created Man without is knowledge or instruction.

That's overly simplistic. Catholicism and Anglicanism have the Book of Genesis just like fundamentalist Christians, but Catholics and Anglicans (Episcopalians in the US) are fine with Evolution. In fact, most mainline Protestant churches in allow for individual conscience to dictate how one interprets the creation story in the Book of Genesis. It can be taken literally, or it can be viewed as a metaphor written a long a time ago designed to make spiritual message about our relationship with the world. The Lutheran church, for example, which is the one I was forced to go to, occasionally, until I was 14 did not require a literal reading of the Book of Genesis.

Calling it heresy is not correct. The Mormon Church has no official position about the theory of evolution, and therefore it cannot be "heresy" to think evolution occurs. There were early Mormon leaders who approved of Darwin's theory of evolution, like Spencer Kimball, David McKay and Joseph F. Smith said that the church took no position one way or the other. There are also Mormons who think that the theory of evolution is wrong, sure. But, heresy? Not at all. It's something that is up for debate.