2012 US Election -- Round 2

Locked
Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:56 pm

Ian wrote:I don't think Kiki's trying to make a case for Democrats holding the moral high ground in terms of military experience so much as Romney taking the low ground. Even bringing up the point of being a Mormon missionary in France is just embarassing. The words "Romney served" should not go together at all.
Romney didn't say it. His WIFE said it on an interview by the dopey "View" cast. Whoopi Goldberg falsely suggested that Mormons were not permitted to serve in the military. His wife was responding to that question and explained what he did do. There is that context that you think matters, except when talking about Republicans (in which case out of context blurbs are fine for you).

And, "Romney served" is no more or less appropriate than with Obama or Biden, so this is again, where you can't seem to hold your boys to the same standard as you would hold your opposition. Obama never "served" anything more noble (or less noble, for that matter). He went to college and law school, then he became an "organizer" and taught some courses. He ran for office. Big deal, right? Such dedication to service...such self-sacrifice?

Please....

User avatar
FBM
Ratz' first Gritizen.
Posts: 45327
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:43 pm
About me: Skeptic. "Because it does not contend
It is therefore beyond reproach"
Contact:

Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by FBM » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:58 pm

He served his whacked-out religion, not the US.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."

"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."

User avatar
Ian
Mr Incredible
Posts: 16975
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Ian » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:06 pm

Coito, I wasn't talking about Obama at all. Spin your own spin at yourself.

You're right - it was Ann Romney who used that line. I haven't heard Mitt say anything to the contrary, but then again I suppose it would be far too embarassing to bring up the subject. But if you look carefully, I wasn't directly attacking Mitt - I was being critical of the rank-and-file GOP zombies (i.e. what you wrote) who thought to defend what she said about him.

Please...

Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:12 pm

Ian wrote:Coito, I wasn't talking about Obama at all. Spin your own spin at yourself.
I know -- but none of the candidates currently running for office served - at all - so focusing on Romney because his wife explained what he was doing during Vietnam instead of going to Vietnam, and ignoring what the Democrat candidates did, which was nothing different - at all - is silly. Of course we know Romney didn't go to Vietnam. So -- fucking -- what?
Ian wrote:
You're right - it was Ann Romney who used that line. I haven't heard Mitt say anything to the contrary, but then again I suppose it would be far too embarassing to bring up the subject. But if you look carefully, I wasn't directly attacking Mitt - I was being critical of the rank-and-file GOP zombies (i.e. what you wrote) who thought to defend what she said about him.

Please...
Because, Ian, Ann Romney accurately recounted what Mitt did instead of going to Vietnam. Again, so what? Is Mitt's conduct worse than Biden's?

There is no need, really, to defend what she said, because there was nothing wrong with what she said. There was something ridiculously stupid about what Whoopi Goldberg said, because she's too stupid to know that Mormons don't have an objection to military service.

And, be critical of rank and file zombies all you want, but to do so fairly you'll have to look in the mirror, unless you can actually point to something that Ann Romney said that was actually wrong. It would be like Biden's wife saying, "no he didn't serve in the military, but he was concentrating on marriage and law school." Big fucking deal, right? That's what the guy was doing.

User avatar
Ian
Mr Incredible
Posts: 16975
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Ian » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:20 pm

Anyway, changing the subject to one of actual importance...

Anyone have any thoughts on differences in foreign policy, seeing as how that's the subject of tonight's debate? The moderator has broken down the debate into these segments:

America's role in the world
Our longest war - Afghanistan and Pakistan
Red lines: Israel and Iran
The changing Middle East and the new face of terrorism I/II
The rise of China and tomorrow's world

I hope the non-Americans on the forum have something to say about this sort of stuff compared to some of our usual babble.

Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:31 pm

Ian wrote:Anyway, changing the subject to one of actual importance...

Anyone have any thoughts on differences in foreign policy, seeing as how that's the subject of tonight's debate? The moderator has broken down the debate into these segments:

America's role in the world
This philosophical question will likely center on Romney suggesting that Obama is helping usher in a diminished role for the US, and one where the US is not the leader, but a participant nation among nations. Obama can embrace the same distinction by characterizing it as mulilateralism without "unilateral interventions," and all that. Romney may accuse Obama obliquely of an "apology tour," and Obama will characterize it as good diplomacy and throw a barb at Romney over his supposed gaffes overseas. Neither side will win this segment, because their fans will cheer them, and their opponents will call them both liars. And, both will be right, since it's such an overly general topic that there is no fact checking that can really be done here.
Ian wrote: Our longest war - Afghanistan and Pakistan
Romney's best bet is to point out that Obama's surge hasn't accomplished much, if anything, and has cost far more lives than under the Bush Administration. Obama will point out that he got Osama, and that he did what he said and refocused the war where it should have been all along. Again, another draw because nobody will be convinced that the other side got the upper hand here.
Ian wrote: Red lines: Israel and Iran
Romney will try to point out his close commitment to Israel, and he will point out that Obama snubbed Netanyahu and give him the "service entrance" treatment, etc. And Romney can point out the "daylight" that Obama wanted between Israel and the US policies. Obama will claim to have been a 110% supporter of israel, but that he has done so by trying not to alienate the Arab countries, and during his presidency we saw Qaddafi and Mubarak fall, etc.

Another draw -- nobody will be convinced, except the fans.
Ian wrote: The changing Middle East and the new face of terrorism I/II
Here Obama will try to get points by making Mitt admit that he was wrong about the act of terror, thing, and Romney is probably rehearsing and re-rehearsing how he will turn that around. It's a wild card. Romney will accuse Obama of presiding over the radical Islamization of north Africa and trading secular dictators for religious fundamentalist dictators. And Romney will try to saddle Obama with the embassy attack and with trying to blame it on the video, etc.
Ian wrote: The rise of China and tomorrow's world
Obama will try to saddle Romney with outsourcing jobs to China. Romney will accuse Obama of kowtowing, and giving our power away to China via the $6 trillion in new debt added under Obama,borrowed from
China.

User avatar
Warren Dew
Posts: 3781
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:41 pm
Location: Somerville, MA, USA
Contact:

Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Warren Dew » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:47 pm

Ian wrote:America's role in the world
Our longest war - Afghanistan and Pakistan
Red lines: Israel and Iran
The changing Middle East and the new face of terrorism I/II
The rise of China and tomorrow's world

I hope the non-Americans on the forum have something to say about this sort of stuff compared to some of our usual babble.
Do we have any members from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Israel, Iran, the Middle East, or China?

User avatar
Warren Dew
Posts: 3781
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:41 pm
Location: Somerville, MA, USA
Contact:

Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Warren Dew » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:49 pm

Ian wrote:Coito, I wasn't talking about Obama at all.
The subject was which candidates had the moral high ground or, as you put it, the "moral low ground". Obama is at least as relevant to that as Romney since it's Obama who is actively sending people to die in a pointless war in Afghanistan.

User avatar
Warren Dew
Posts: 3781
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:41 pm
Location: Somerville, MA, USA
Contact:

Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Warren Dew » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:54 pm

Ian wrote:Anyone have any thoughts on differences in foreign policy, seeing as how that's the subject of tonight's debate?
There aren't a whole heck of a lot of differences in foreign policy here. Romney might be able to get away with recruiting fewer terrorists for Al Qaeda through drone assassinations since his "peace through strength" approach makes it easier to pressure the local authorities to arrest the terrorists and allow them to be tried, but I don't foresee him bringing that up in the debate. Sadly, too many voters would see "I'll assassinate fewer terrorism suspects without due process" as weakness.

User avatar
Gerald McGrew
Posts: 611
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:32 pm
About me: Fisker of Men
Location: Pacific Northwest
Contact:

Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Gerald McGrew » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:55 pm

Ian wrote:Anyway, changing the subject to one of actual importance...

Anyone have any thoughts on differences in foreign policy, seeing as how that's the subject of tonight's debate? The moderator has broken down the debate into these segments:

America's role in the world
Our longest war - Afghanistan and Pakistan
Red lines: Israel and Iran
The changing Middle East and the new face of terrorism I/II
The rise of China and tomorrow's world

I hope the non-Americans on the forum have something to say about this sort of stuff compared to some of our usual babble.
You know all those talking points you've heard from both candidates on those issues? You're going to hear them again tonight.

About the only thing I'd really like to see is Obama put all of Romney's stated positions together and summarize what they would result in, i.e. we would still be in Iraq, have more troops in Afghanistan, increased presence near Iran, Qaddafi still in power, Bin Laden likely still alive, and more of an active role in Syria. Sounds like W. Bush times eleventy!
If you don't like being called "stupid", then stop saying stupid things.

User avatar
Ian
Mr Incredible
Posts: 16975
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Ian » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:02 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Ian wrote:America's role in the world
Our longest war - Afghanistan and Pakistan
Red lines: Israel and Iran
The changing Middle East and the new face of terrorism I/II
The rise of China and tomorrow's world

I hope the non-Americans on the forum have something to say about this sort of stuff compared to some of our usual babble.
Do we have any members from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Israel, Iran, the Middle East, or China?
Is that the point? :roll:

I was guessing that US foreign policy might be of slightly greater interest than Americans bickering over the candidates' lack of military experience. For example, Sino-American relation, one way or another, are going to define a large part of the world economy in the coming decades, IMHO.

User avatar
macdoc
Twitcher
Posts: 8900
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:20 pm
Location: BirdWing Home FNQ
Contact:

Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by macdoc » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:17 am

Getting very amusing out there

Image

more

Daily Kos: Horses And Bayonets Tweets and Pics

InstaPoll gave Obama a big win.

CBS insta-poll: Obama wins debate, 53 percent to 23 percent - Politico
http://www.politico.com/.../cbs-instapo ... ebate-perc...
Resident in Cairns Australia • Current ride> 2014 Honda CB500F • Travel photos https://500px.com/p/macdoc?view=galleries

User avatar
Warren Dew
Posts: 3781
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:41 pm
Location: Somerville, MA, USA
Contact:

Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Warren Dew » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:11 am

So, Ian, how does it feel to know that ships are obsolete?

Also that aircraft carriers aren't ships, as aren't "ships that go underwater".

User avatar
Wumbologist
I want a do-over
Posts: 4720
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:04 pm
Contact:

Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by Wumbologist » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:45 am

Warren Dew wrote:So, Ian, how does it feel to know that ships are obsolete?

Also that aircraft carriers aren't ships, as aren't "ships that go underwater".
Nobody said ships are obsolete. However, the old model of naval warfare is obsolete. It's not the 1940s anymore, we don't need hundreds of extra ships in case the Hun sinks a few dozen. Ship-to-ship combat is decades outdated and the main concern these days is force projection, a task that is performed exceedingly well with nuclear submarines and carrier battle groups. Romney showed just how little he knows about how a 21st century military operates.

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74092
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: 2012 US Election -- Round 2

Post by JimC » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:16 am

Warren Dew wrote:
Ian wrote:America's role in the world
Our longest war - Afghanistan and Pakistan
Red lines: Israel and Iran
The changing Middle East and the new face of terrorism I/II
The rise of China and tomorrow's world

I hope the non-Americans on the forum have something to say about this sort of stuff compared to some of our usual babble.
Do we have any members from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Israel, Iran, the Middle East, or China?
No, most come from US client states like the UK and Australia... :roll:
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot], pErvinalia and 9 guests