The decline of America..

[Rum]

There is a lot of noise about this issue right now. Just google the subject line and there are any number of references and indeed Andrew Marr's Start the Week - a high profile BBC radio programme which (funnily enough starts the week on Monday mornings) was today about that subject.

So how will it play out do people think?

[Coito ergo sum]

There has been talk of American decline, and Obama presiding over American decline, for the last 4 years. It's nothing new on this side of the pond.

I think news of our demise is somewhat overstated, but there are aspects of the US that do point to an overall decline. The most disconcerting to me is the loss of the US's industrial base, and I find that to be among the most dangerous aspects. This is not an Obama thing, as our industrial base has been declining since the 1970s. We really can't afford to lose that.

Our military strength is top-notch right now, and not a country in the world wants to go toe to toe. But, it without industrial might, the military is hollow.

[Audley Strange]

There's a great book, called "The Stand" by Steven King which most people take as a biblical allegory, possibly because they can't see what is right in front of their fucking faces, which is essentially a tract about American decline from small town independence to federal corporatism which emerged in the late 60's. The book is painfully mawkish but it does serve to show that even at the time when it was written people were harping on about American decline.

It's not the country that's in decline, it is it's politics.

[Ian]

http://www.brookings.edu/research/opini ... ower-kagan

[Mysturji]

There's a great book, called "The Stand" by Steven King which most people take as a biblical allegory, possibly because they can't see what is right in front of their fucking faces, which is essentially a tract about American decline from small town independence to federal corporatism which emerged in the late 60's. The book is painfully mawkish but it does serve to show that even at the time when it was written people were harping on about American decline.

It's not the country that's in decline, it is it's politics.

And its punctuation.

[Audley Strange]

There's a great book, called "The Stand" by Steven King which most people take as a biblical allegory, possibly because they can't see what is right in front of their fucking faces, which is essentially a tract about American decline from small town independence to federal corporatism which emerged in the late 60's. The book is painfully mawkish but it does serve to show that even at the time when it was written people were harping on about American decline.

It's not the country that's in decline, it is it's politics.

And its punctuation.

If that's at my expense, I'm Scottish.

[Coito ergo sum]

There's a great book, called "The Stand" by Steven King which most people take as a biblical allegory, possibly because they can't see what is right in front of their fucking faces, which is essentially a tract about American decline from small town independence to federal corporatism which emerged in the late 60's. The book is painfully mawkish but it does serve to show that even at the time when it was written people were harping on about American decline.

It's not the country that's in decline, it is it's politics.

The Stand starts out good, but gets too mystical later on.

[amused]

There are 7 billion of us on the planet. Several billion aren't particularly productive in modern terms, so they represent a huge untapped labor supply. Multi-national corporations need not have any allegiance to any one nation, so they have no reason to be concerned about any one nation's decline. Industry will continue to chase the lowest cost production as various developing nations come online. So a decline in the US industrial output isn't really a measure of decline, IMO, it's just a reflection of the changing world economy.

[Audley Strange]

There's a great book, called "The Stand" by Steven King which most people take as a biblical allegory, possibly because they can't see what is right in front of their fucking faces, which is essentially a tract about American decline from small town independence to federal corporatism which emerged in the late 60's. The book is painfully mawkish but it does serve to show that even at the time when it was written people were harping on about American decline.

It's not the country that's in decline, it is it's politics.

The Stand starts out good, but gets too mystical later on.

If you ignore the mystical bollocks though the text is obvious. I mean the disease that wipes them out is called "Captain Trips" and Randall Flagg is essentially Jim Morrison. It makes the claim that the baby boomer hippy culture is inherently vacuous and corrupt time and time again. Considering he started writing it in the mid seventies, I thought it a good cultural example of what you were saying about the ideas that have been around, essentially since the fall of Nero, err Nixon.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated."

[mistermack]

America won the arms race, only to discover that they were racing a cripple who lied about his legs, and that there was no prize anyway.

You have India and China and Brazil on the up, that has to mean that the US goes down.
The US has always used it's might as the biggest market, but soon it won't be.

Economically, it's fucked because it's living beyond it's means, and it can't agree on who should pay.
So it is in decline, but not free-fall. It's really more a question of others on the up.

I'm not optimistic for the US or the UK, or the EU, because we still haven't learned how to run an economy.
The politicians run it with the next election in mind, not the next recession.
And we voters haven't learned to see through it, and punish them.

[Coito ergo sum]

America won the arms race, only to discover that they were racing a cripple who lied about his legs, and that there was no prize anyway.

Hindsight is 20/20 and the Soviet Union wasn't as much of an invalid as some now wish to suggest. They were less powerful than they claimed, that's for sure, but they had a pretty good military for a time which could throw a good punch.

And, it wasn't for a prize, so nobody every expected one.

You have India and China and Brazil on the up, that has to mean that the US goes down.

It does not have to mean that the US goes down. It must mean that US influence in the world becomes less dominant, but it doesn't mean that we as a nation have to decline. Other nations catching up, that is, doesn't mean that we have declined.

The US has always used it's might as the biggest market, but soon it won't be.

Quite true.

Economically, it's fucked because it's living beyond it's means, and it can't agree on who should pay.

So is Europe, and probably even moreso. So is China and Brazil, by the way. Not sure about India. But, all three of those countries have a long way to go. The US gets lambasted for its health care system, welfare state assistance, and the like -- but, we do far more for our people here in all those areas than China, Brazil and India. The average poor person in the US would be shocked at the condition of the average poor person in India, china and Brazil. So, if those are our nearest competitors, they do have a ways to go.

So it is in decline, but not free-fall. It's really more a question of others on the up.

Yes, I agree. And, on the "others on the up" we need to look at reality, which is that places like Brazil are hell-holes for nearly 1/2 their populations in comparison to the US. The income disparity of rich to poor in Brazil is far worse than in the US, and it's not improving very much. Some Brazilians are getting more discretionary income and you get a lot more Brazilians traveling here to buy our stuff. But, if you're "average" or below in Brazil, you live in a shit hole, and have nothing, and you go to horrid state run medical clinics which are awful.

I'm not optimistic for the US or the UK, because we still haven't learned how to run an economy.

This is a strange comment. Who has learned how to run an economy? Anyone?

The politicians run it with the next election in mind, not the next recession.
And we voters haven't learned to see through it, and punish them.

Short term goals is a problem, yes.

[amused]

The Us is great at making shit up, such as sub-prime mortgages re-packaged as investment grade bonds and real estate and tech bubbles that could be sold to the Chinese and Saudis. Where else are they going to spend their money?

[Gerald McGrew]

Right now the US is a demonstration of a plutocracy. If "millionaire" was a political party, they would easily control the House, the Senate, the White House, and the Supreme Court. We are the most uber-capitalistic country that's ever existed, and we are governed as such.

[Jason]

So how will it play out do people think?

Something between The Road Warrior and the Fallout game series. Begin hoarding ammo - you'll need it to fend off the hoards of zombies, mutants and post-apocalyptic retro-punk gangs.