20 years today-- Sinead and the Pope's picture.

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20 years today-- Sinead and the Pope's picture.

Post by hadespussercats » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:20 am

A great article in the Atlantic : http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainmen ... or/263020/
In the weeks and months after Sinead O'Connor tore up a picture of Pope John Paul II on live television, commentators in the media sought to explain the motives of her protest. Very few, however, made use of the traditional tools of journalism: interviews, research, and textual analysis. Instead, most commentators seem to have consulted their own imaginations.
...DeCurtis and Roeper provided their own speculative reasons for O'Connor's protest plucked from American headlines at the time, like access to contraception, abortion, and the Troubles. Almost entirely overlooked in the controversy was the text of O'Connor's protest—a Bob Marley song, "War," with lyrics taken from a speech by Haile Selassie. O'Connor had replaced out-of-date lyrics about apartheid African regimes with the phrase "child abuse, yeah," repeated twice with spine-stiffening venom.

Also inexplicably ignored were O'Connor's own words, in an interview published in Time a month after her SNL appearance:
It's not the man, obviously—it's the office and the symbol of the organization that he represents... In Ireland we see our people are manifesting the highest incidence in Europe of child abuse. This is a direct result of the fact that they're not in contact with their history as Irish people and the fact that in the schools, the priests have been beating the shit out of the children for years and sexually abusing them. This is the example that's been set for the people of Ireland. They have been controlled by the church, the very people who authorized what was done to them, who gave permission for what was done to them.
Her interviewer seemed confused by the connection O'Connor was making between the Catholic Church and child abuse...
I remember that moment. I was sitting on the couch with my best friend Scott, at his house. We took it seriously-- looked at each other in silence for a moment, then talked about it. I got chills.

I didn't understand what her intentions were-- I assumed she was referring to politics in Ireland and women's rights.

Funny how the reception of ideas changes over time. Back then, the interviewer couldn't comprehend what she was saying about child abuse in the Catholic Church. Now, it's beyond well-known-- it's a cliche.

Anyway, I thought it was an interesting article. And as for Sinead, well, I'm still a fan. :cheer:
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Re: 20 years today-- Sinead and the Pope's picture.

Post by Ronja » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:24 am

I remember the "scandal" - I never really understood why she did it, but assumed she had good reasons from her POV. I also thought it stupid that several opinionated people (mostly in letters to editors) wanted to limit children's access to her music because she was supposedly "disrespectful" (or worse). Rolled my eyes at that and liked her music just a bit more because of those stupid comments.

Thanks for putting this into context, hades! :tup:
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Re: 20 years today-- Sinead and the Pope's picture.

Post by JimC » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:39 am

Good for her. If she had fully realised the cultural blindness about the issue at the time, she may have attempted to spell it out even more clearly.
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Re: 20 years today-- Sinead and the Pope's picture.

Post by Audley Strange » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:50 am

It both benefitted her career and brought down catholicism. I recall JP2 saying at the time "yeah the neurotic from spudland's right, Catholicism is finished" before he Pazzi'd himself of the balcony.
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Re: 20 years today-- Sinead and the Pope's picture.

Post by charlou » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:35 am

We were talking about Sinead's actions the other day, coincidentally. Thanks for posting the article, hades.
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Re: 20 years today-- Sinead and the Pope's picture.

Post by Robert_S » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:02 am

And she didn't get killed over it. :cheer:
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: 20 years today-- Sinead and the Pope's picture.

Post by klr » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:08 am

The odd thing is, she's still a firm "believer". In her eyes, it's just the church organisation that's all wrong.
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Re: 20 years today-- Sinead and the Pope's picture.

Post by Ronja » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:17 am

klr wrote:The odd thing is, she's still a firm "believer". In her eyes, it's just the church organisation that's all wrong.
Now that is fascinating... You wouldn't happen to have a link to a long, in-depth interview or something about her views of faith vs. church? I used to be a believer who was critical of churches as organizations/cultures, but lost/misplaced my faith and have not missed it, so I am curious about what differences could explain the different outcomes.
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Re: 20 years today-- Sinead and the Pope's picture.

Post by klr » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:20 am

Ronja wrote:
klr wrote:The odd thing is, she's still a firm "believer". In her eyes, it's just the church organisation that's all wrong.
Now that is fascinating... You wouldn't happen to have a link to a long, in-depth interview or something about her views of faith vs. church? I used to be a believer who was critical of churches as organizations/cultures, but lost/misplaced my faith and have not missed it, so I am curious about what differences could explain the different outcomes.
Here's what wiki has to say on her religious views:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin%C3%A9a ... r#Religion

Hopefully, some of the footnotes link to articles that might expand on her religious views. If not, I'll try and dig up some more articles/video clips later.
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Re: 20 years today-- Sinead and the Pope's picture.

Post by JimC » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:38 am

If the vast numbers of liberal catholics who are disgusted with the current hierarchy ever get their shit together, there will be a schism to rival the Reformation...
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Re: 20 years today-- Sinead and the Pope's picture.

Post by hadespussercats » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:48 pm

Audley Strange wrote:It both benefitted her career and brought down catholicism. I recall JP2 saying at the time "yeah the neurotic from spudland's right, Catholicism is finished" before he Pazzi'd himself of the balcony.
:mrgreen:

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Re: 20 years today-- Sinead and the Pope's picture.

Post by hadespussercats » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:49 pm

JimC wrote:If the vast numbers of liberal catholics who are disgusted with the current hierarchy ever get their shit together, there will be a schism to rival the Reformation...
Probably just as well, then. Let's hear it for apathy! :cheer:
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Re: 20 years today-- Sinead and the Pope's picture.

Post by Audley Strange » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:23 pm

Ronja wrote:
klr wrote:The odd thing is, she's still a firm "believer". In her eyes, it's just the church organisation that's all wrong.
Now that is fascinating... You wouldn't happen to have a link to a long, in-depth interview or something about her views of faith vs. church? I used to be a believer who was critical of churches as organizations/cultures, but lost/misplaced my faith and have not missed it, so I am curious about what differences could explain the different outcomes.
There is one. I looked youtube for it but couldn't find anything. A few years back on Channel 4 or BBC she was interviewed, I think she claimed that she was a nun or a priestess or something, but she had the same complaints that every christian group in history except the catholic church has had about the catholic church and was defiant about allowing them to dictate her religion to her. She had a mish mash of gnosticism and catholic dogma, but she seemed happy, well content, well... Sinead O Connor.

I've always suspected that many atheists are not actually atheists, but anti-religious. They're issue is not with their creator but with the Church. I have some sympathy, my issue is not with their creator either, even though I think it a nonsense, my issue is with the social political influence their leaders have and the manipulation it entails. Railing against God is like railing against pythagoras theorem.

For what it's worth I think atheists should bear that in mind.
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Re: 20 years today-- Sinead and the Pope's picture.

Post by Ronja » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:45 pm

I have nothing against anyone being religious, as long as they keep it strictly private, i.e. do not do any healing prayers in a public school classroom full of kids (this happened in the primary school where our kids go, though not in either's own class) and do not require that any laws are based on their particular holy book, nor try to influence the society outside their religion in any religion-specific way.

I guess I'm a victim of the reasonableness delusion, then? :sigh:
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Re: 20 years today-- Sinead and the Pope's picture.

Post by Audley Strange » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:48 pm

Ronja wrote:I have nothing against anyone being religious, as long as they keep it strictly private, i.e. do not do any healing prayers in a public school classroom full of kids (this happened in the primary school where our kids go, though not in either's own class) and do not require that any laws are based on their particular holy book, nor try to influence the society outside their religion in any religion-specific way.

I guess I'm a victim of the reasonableness delusion, then? :sigh:
If you think that reason holds sway over humanity then perhaps not deluded more likely about 4000 years too early.

Sigh indeed.
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