Personal Experiences that Led you to your Atheism

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Re: Personal Experiences that Led you to your Atheism

Post by Animavore » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:49 am

rasetsu wrote:
Animavore wrote:It's not 'experiences' which led me to atheism. It's a complete lack of them which did. I've never experienced this thing theists call 'God'. I don't even know what the fuck they're on about half the time. When I see them in a Mosque, Church or temple with their hands to the sky or kneeling on the ground I think to myself, What, in God's name, are you fucking people doing? Can they not see themselves? It just seems to me that they convince themselves these things are real because everywhere I've looked, in every religious text I've read, in every place of worship I've been to, when I've meditated and looked inward, absolutely everywhere I've looked, and by fuck did I try, everywhere I've looked there is nothing there. No miracles, no magic, no unexplainable phenomena. Just pure, unadulterated reality devoid of any metaphysical background one can pick out and point to and say there lies the Ultimate Reality. Nothing.
It may seem silly from the outside, but what's going on in the inside is what matters. Religious rituals often have the effect of changing the chemistry of the blood and the brain, resulting in release of hormones, an influx of dopamine, endorphins, oxytocin and so forth, all of which change the way the brain interprets what it is experiencing, changing the way that memories are made, and just overall making the experience more intense, meaningful, and memorable. I've often wondered if the effect of rituals like singing hymns doesn't in some sense de-activate our reasoning centers such that the content of the hymn or ritual is processed less critically. I don't have any specific evidence of that, but it's clear that these religious rituals put believers in an altered state of consciousness which is experientially different than a normal, unexcited state.
I find all of that as convincing as a giraffe in a HazMat suit trying to get into a polar bears only convention.

Even if it does give them some sort of natural high is that any different to hyperventilating yourself by means of quick shallow breathing? To reiterate what I said above. No miracle, no magic, just natural reality.

That and people working themselves into a tizzy and calling it a "God" experience.
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Re: Personal Experiences that Led you to your Atheism

Post by Animavore » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:58 am

rasetsu wrote:I remembered that I gave an extended exposition of my religious experience recently. Not being an atheist, I'm not sure how useful it might be to you, but I'll copy it over anyway.

My growing up stories are complicated by the fact that early on, I developed severe delusions. While they're not strictly religious, my growing up stories are plagued by there being two sets of them. The one, the side I showed to the world, and didn't include the crazy elements (I had paranoid delusions, and this was my way of avoiding detection). The other reaches deep into my madness, in which God and I were on first name basis, and he was clearly my second, yet I owed him for favors given. Somewhere between my early childhood and adolescence, the 'sane' track lost the religious, Christian elements it had. I don't know how or when I lost my faith, but by my early teens, it wasn't there. I always believed that my parents didn't love me, and that after my sisters were born, four years before me, my arrival was greeted as a mistake. I don't think this was the signal event, but once my sisters were confirmed, my mother lost all interest in church and my religious education. Needless to say, I saw this as simply one more example of how I didn't matter to them. If God hadn't been completely gone by then, he was fading quickly. The ice had already frozen by my mid-teens. In the middle of a screaming match with my mother, I made it plain. She told me to go to hell, and I retorted that she could go to hell herself, but that I didn't believe in any of that "God shit."

And so it went, and high school came. I was an extremely shy and retiring person, but strangely enormously popular. I can't count the number of cliques that counted me as one of their own, from jocks to dirts to brains and everything in between. I managed by being witty and weird, using enigmatic presentations to hide my anxiety and insecurity. And I nearly flunked out of high school, as I started having regular depressions my second year. So my final year I had to pour myself into my studies to make up the ground lost the year before or I wouldn't graduate. One of the classes I loved best of my entire high school experience was a class in Asian history. When we came to discussion of China, the teacher read some selections from the Tao Te Ching. After class, I asked him if I could look at the book. I don't recall what initially sparked my curiosity, but he offered to loan it to me, and I accepted. That night, I went home and read it cover to cover, completely absorbed by it. Everything in it struck deep chords in me. Things that I had felt, but had not words for, suddenly had words. I became a Taoist that night.

I'm perhaps not the ideal candidate for Taoism, being both cold and intellectual, in a faith that emphasizes compassion and near anti-intellectual mysticism, but I've never been tempted in the least to choose another path. After flunking out of college, I moved to the big city, Minneapolis. I don't recall the dates, but there was a period of 12-13 years in which I considered myself apostatic. Not so much disbelieving as being puzzled by something I didn't feel could be reconciled with my understanding of Taoism. After 12 or so years pondering the matter, I hit upon a way to patch things up by drawing on parts of Buddhism and parts of Sun Tzu. I'm not sure in hindsight whether my solution was valid, or whether I had just wanted it so badly that I let myself believe it was. You might have noticed that I have not talked about my Hinduism. Part of that is intentional. I'm very insecure about my Hinduism, and parts of it intersect with my madness in ways I'm not willing to share. But what I can share is that my Hinduism began in college. At first, it was just recognizing something essential in poetry and art, something that spoke to a part of me that needed to be acknowledged. Perhaps it's simply my split between being cold as ice and being rageful and uncontrolled. Perhaps it's something more complex. As time went on, and I learned more about the goddess, the more it struck me as something essentially right, just as my Taoism had, but also wholly other. An other that I had been missing. Looking back on things, I think I might have settled my conflict with the Tao by acknowledging the goddess, but at the time, that path wasn't open to me. It's only been recently I've been even minimally open with others about my Hinduism. And there is much I don't know. I feel so ignorant. Perhaps I am reaching back in time to that shy high schooler. Or perhaps I'm just looking for a poetic way to end this.

Maybe I should just end it thus.

Image

Looking back on my previous post, an element of my story that I didn't mention may be of interest to you. Partly because my atheist groups like to read books about the psychology of religion, and part because I have a life long interest in understanding the mind, I've read a good bit about certain theories concerning the psychology of religion this past year. Part of that is spurred by my interest in the mind, but part is that I just love religion in all its dimensions, although metaphysically I am a materialist. But I enjoy learning about and exploring other religions purely for its own sake. I'm currently meeting regularly or intermittently with groups devoted to channeled entities, a group of psychics, mediums, and healers, a heathen bible study group, a "secular bible study group" (a mix of theists & nontheists), and a Buddhist book club. The Buddhist group is motivated by my interest in certain intersections between my own theories of mind and Buddhist doctrine, and while I tell myself that I'm in some of these groups as an observer only, a sort of cultural anthropologist, that would be asserting a degree of detachment that is untrue. Not that I'm willing to give up the mantle of materialism, but I find myself at home in groups with diverse religious or metaphysical views.

Anyway, I promised an interesting bit, and have yet to deliver. As noted, I'm currently learning about Buddhism. However, this is not my first encounter with Buddhism in a deep way. I have "flirted with" Buddhism several times in the past. To say I flirted is an understatement. I drank the Kool-aid. Several times in my life, I went whole hog into becoming a Buddhist. But each time it lasted only a few weeks. Having lived with a mental illness for a long time, I've learned the skill of "self monitoring" which one uses to detect changes in one's thinking to assess whether there are symptoms that need to be treated or watched. As a consequence, I'm a pretty good witness to my own state of mind. And each time that my latest fling with Buddhism had ended, it was clear that my thinking had been abnormal. During those several weeks of conversion, things Buddhist and religious things in general took on a heightened importance for me. An importance that just vanished like a bubble bursting at the end. It was clear in hindsight that my religiosity had been the result of an altered state of mind, some errant brain chemistry that eventually righted itself. I've never considered those episodes to have anything to say about my normal religious experience, but perhaps I should. (If it weren't for that SEP field around my own beliefs. Not coincidentally, that tendency to find meaning in otherwise random data, which was part of those episodes, is called 'apophenia'.)

Image
It's not useful at all really. Countless people have presented so-called "experiences" to me. If I found them in anyway convincing I wouldn't be an atheist. These experiences are often so mundane to me. Many are even trite. It doesn't help that you're explaining it to me while at the same time explaining it away through known phenomena (like apophenia). I go for the natural explanation when presented with a list of possibilities seeing no reason for a reason beyond the brain and its functions and you've just provided your own natural explanation to your own experience. Well if that's all it was, apophenia :dunno:

I don't believe what it says in that image either, that children invent the concept of 'God' without adult intervention. And there's nothing wrong with working for your worldview. Soundbites are great though.
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Re: Personal Experiences that Led you to your Atheism

Post by rasetsu » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:20 pm




Wow, Animavore, what a hostile little cunt you are. I try to add a little spice by providing some of the scientific research regarding religion and you go all medieval on my ass. What the fuck is wrong with you? Did your mommy not love you enough?

Jesus bloody Christ. In case your pea brain has forgotten, this thread was created by Nibbler, for his benefit, to help him write an essay he apparently has been assigned. But by all means, keep on going and showing what a self-centered, stupid and reading comprehension challenged dick you are. I didn't realize you were such a big asshole, but thanks for the information.



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Re: Personal Experiences that Led you to your Atheism

Post by Rum » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:23 pm

rasetsu wrote:Wow, Animavore, what a hostile little cunt you are. I try to add a little spice by providing some of the scientific research regarding religion and you go all medieval on my ass. What the fuck is wrong with you? Did your mommy not love you enough?

Jesus bloody Christ. In case your pea brain has forgotten, this thread was created by Nibbler, for his benefit, to help him write an essay he apparently has been assigned. But by all means, keep on going and showing what a self-centered, stupid and reading comprehension challenged dick you are. I didn't realize you were such a big asshole, but thanks for the information.
Rasetsu - A reminder that personal attacks are against the rules (one of the very few we have). The rule concerned is here should you wish to check it out: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3449 (second bullet point..)

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Re: Personal Experiences that Led you to your Atheism

Post by Thinking Aloud » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:42 pm

There were a few moments along the way - not so much "experiences" as things that happened. And I was someone who'd felt the spiritual uplift in times past...

One was while at University, when the priest was giving a sermon one Sunday, and expounding on how there has "never been so much suffering in the world" as there was today. For the first time ever, I actually stopped and thought, "no - that's not right". There's never been so much suffering reported before, I was sure, but actual suffering? Given our technological advances and medicine? I was sure he was wrong - and how could he be wrong, if he was a priest? It was perhaps the moment I woke up to noticing that priests weren't infallible: they were just blokes ranting on, making stuff up, and passing it off as truth.

It took a while longer to get over the whole thing though. I gradually realised that christianity was not rational, but that something most likely made the universe, so this was just as good a way as any other of showing my appreciation. And then the whole idea that something made the universe (and that it gave a damn about us) fell away, and I was left thinking, "gosh - there's just the universe!"

I concluded that worship was non-essential, that there was no 'god' requiring it, and that I was wasting a lot of time - but I felt entirely alone in that thought. Reading TGD was a great step - just to realise that other intelligent people had come to the same conclusions was so reassuring. The "one god further" quote was the point I knew I was an atheist. Realising I was risking putting the kids' minds through the same twisted passage that mine had suffered, I knew I had to break off from attending church (where I'd been musician for 15 years).

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Re: Personal Experiences that Led you to your Atheism

Post by JimC » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:20 pm

rasetsu wrote:
Animavore wrote:It's not 'experiences' which led me to atheism. It's a complete lack of them which did. I've never experienced this thing theists call 'God'. I don't even know what the fuck they're on about half the time. When I see them in a Mosque, Church or temple with their hands to the sky or kneeling on the ground I think to myself, What, in God's name, are you fucking people doing? Can they not see themselves? It just seems to me that they convince themselves these things are real because everywhere I've looked, in every religious text I've read, in every place of worship I've been to, when I've meditated and looked inward, absolutely everywhere I've looked, and by fuck did I try, everywhere I've looked there is nothing there. No miracles, no magic, no unexplainable phenomena. Just pure, unadulterated reality devoid of any metaphysical background one can pick out and point to and say there lies the Ultimate Reality. Nothing.
It may seem silly from the outside, but what's going on in the inside is what matters. Religious rituals often have the effect of changing the chemistry of the blood and the brain, resulting in release of hormones, an influx of dopamine, endorphins, oxytocin and so forth, all of which change the way the brain interprets what it is experiencing, changing the way that memories are made, and just overall making the experience more intense, meaningful, and memorable. I've often wondered if the effect of rituals like singing hymns doesn't in some sense de-activate our reasoning centers such that the content of the hymn or ritual is processed less critically. I don't have any specific evidence of that, but it's clear that these religious rituals put believers in an altered state of consciousness which is experientially different than a normal, unexcited state.
I think you are quite likely right about many aspects of the internal, subjective feelings of believers when actively engaged in religious activities. However, in many ways, this is not what matters at all, at least in the sense of making sense of the way the universe works, or finding appropriate ways to run societies. Religious people make the leap from their subjective experiences into many inappropriate places...
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Re: Personal Experiences that Led you to your Atheism

Post by Red Celt » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:24 pm

JimC wrote:Religious people make the leap from their subjective experiences into many inappropriate places...
Like, between people's legs.
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Re: Personal Experiences that Led you to your Atheism

Post by JimC » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:29 pm

Red Celt wrote:
JimC wrote:Religious people make the leap from their subjective experiences into many inappropriate places...
Like, between people's legs.
:lol:
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Re: Personal Experiences that Led you to your Atheism

Post by Bella Fortuna » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:33 pm

:hehe:
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Re: Personal Experiences that Led you to your Atheism

Post by SteveB » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:46 pm

Bella Fortuna wrote::hehe:
What about your personal experiences? Hmmmmmmm

I heard you were a hardcore Scientologist (as all Californians are) and Tom Cruise saved you from an alien invasion through the use of a precog psychic and then you both took off in Navy jets into the sunset and that somehow made you an atheist.

I'm not telling who my sources are..
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Re: Personal Experiences that Led you to your Atheism

Post by Bella Fortuna » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:47 pm

I was raised with nothing, got into pagany crap for a few years, and then left that behind when I came to my senses.
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Re: Personal Experiences that Led you to your Atheism

Post by SteveB » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:49 pm

Bella Fortuna wrote:I was raised with nothing, got into pagany crap for a few years, and then left that behind when I came to my senses.
Well that's not very interesting. :coffee:

Do Pagans still worship cake?
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Re: Personal Experiences that Led you to your Atheism

Post by Bella Fortuna » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:50 pm

Nibbler wrote:
Bella Fortuna wrote:I was raised with nothing, got into pagany crap for a few years, and then left that behind when I came to my senses.
Well that's not very interesting. :coffee:

Do Pagans still worship cake?
If they did I'd still be one.
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Re: Personal Experiences that Led you to your Atheism

Post by SteveB » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:52 pm

Bella Fortuna wrote:
Nibbler wrote:
Bella Fortuna wrote:I was raised with nothing, got into pagany crap for a few years, and then left that behind when I came to my senses.
Well that's not very interesting. :coffee:

Do Pagans still worship cake?
If they did I'd still be one.
I'll get Kristie to convert you. :teef:
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Re: Personal Experiences that Led you to your Atheism

Post by Bella Fortuna » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:54 pm

Oh I think I'm the one converting her... :tea:
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