Are you too angry about religion?

[statichaos]

Paul was a dillweed.

I wonder if people today actually believe that 2000 years ago a Jewish inhabitant of the Middle East rose from the grave like a fucking zombie? And what of the other supposed resurrections recorded in the "Good Book"? Lazarus, for instance, or Jairus' daughter, or all those OT saints who strolled the streets of Jerusalem during Jesus' crucifixion, or some such thing? Do people living in the 21st century really believe this? Are people so easily duped into believing things that are manifestly absurd? Of course, it's a rhetorical question: the world is full of credulous halfwits, who'll believe the most astonishing things on the basis of no evidence whatsoever. For myself, I'm no more capable of believing in the "resurrection" of Jesus than I'm capable of believing that Balaam's donkey was fluent in Hebrew, or that Samson single-handedly slew a thousand armed Philistine soldiers with the jawbone of an ass (one would have to be an ass oneself to believe such fantastic nonsense).

The fact is that a number of otherwise intelligent and reasonable people believe these things. I don't know the reason why, and make no claims to be able to figure it out. However, so long as they are not swinging their theological arms where my secular nose begins, I'm not too worried about it.

[Coito ergo sum]

Paul was a dillweed.

I wonder if people today actually believe that 2000 years ago a Jewish inhabitant of the Middle East rose from the grave like a fucking zombie? And what of the other supposed resurrections recorded in the "Good Book"? Lazarus, for instance, or Jairus' daughter, or all those OT saints who strolled the streets of Jerusalem during Jesus' crucifixion, or some such thing? Do people living in the 21st century really believe this?

I have investigated the same question. And, the answer is an unequivocal, "yes." Many people really believe it.

Are people so easily duped into believing things that are manifestly absurd?

Yes. People are quite gullible. Look at the new age energy fad, crystals, karma, pyramid therapy, magnet therapy, alien abductions, ancient astronauts, Nibiru, 2012, Moon Hoax, 9/11 Conspiracies, and all the rest of that nonsense. People love ancient wisdom and inside knowledge, and often have a problem distinguishing what they want to be true and what is true. There is also a great human need to have answers right now for things they "can't explain." We have pattern seeking minds, that when we see something it tries to interpret what we see in light of what we already know. Like, when the Aztecs first saw the Spanish in Mexico and thought that men on horses were some sort of combination man-beast. They had never seen horses or men in armor. Their minds gave them an answer to work with. We have to use our reason think about things in order to avoid doing stuff like that.

Of course, it's a rhetorical question: the world is full of credulous halfwits, who'll believe the most astonishing things on the basis of no evidence whatsoever.

The average IQ is about 100, right?

For myself, I'm no more capable of believing in the "resurrection" of Jesus than I'm capable of believing that Balaam's donkey was fluent in Hebrew, or that Samson single-handedly slew a thousand armed Philistine soldiers with the jawbone of an ass (one would have to be an ass oneself to believe such fantastic nonsense).

Unfortunately, we are all capable of being duped at some point. I used to spend a lot of money on "wheat grass juice" because for some reason it seemed like I felt better if I had a shot of wheat grass juice. I eventually learned that it was total bollocks and is a giant scam. I was angry with myself for buying into that shit.

[Tigger]

The average IQ is about 100, right?

(If you'll forgive the snip)

Yes, it is, and while it's difficult to assess intelligence, someone with an IQ of 100 is pretty fucking dim.

If anyone here (with one or two exceptions maybe) believes that their IQ is as low as 100, they should be reassessed to become pleasantly surprised.

Someone wrote somewhere here that religious belief was more common in those with an IQ of less than 125, which is a lot more respectable than 100, and atheists had IQs greater than this in general. I don't know if it's true, but it makes sense to me.

[Epictetus]

So long as they are not swinging their theological arms where my secular nose begins, I'm not too worried about it.

Unfortunately I've been harassed and bullied by various religious enthusiasts my whole life. My family is deeply religious, which is to say, fanatical. To cite some examples: my father once shit-canned by entire collection of books, believing they were "of the devil" (He was definitely a "man of one book"). When I expressed a desire to go to college, he quoted the Bible, saying: "The wisdom of this world is foolishness to god." He believed that a secular education was a waste of time, and very displeasing to his god, who evidently wants people to be ignorant. As a little kid I had some Ian Livingstone Choose Your Own Adventure books, which I was forced to get rid of because they were "evil". As a teenager he once tore down all my band posters, and destroyed all my CD's, which he thought were "satanic". One time, after having found a contradiction in the Bible, and pointing it out to my father, he blew his top and yelled at me, quoting the apostle Paul: "Who art thou, oh man, that repliest against god". This is the kind of insane upbringing that I experienced, courtesy of my lunatic father. And I haven't even scratched the surface. To this day certain members of my family (my father has since "given up the ghost") will have nothing to do with me, because I have rejected their religion. I once gave a copy of Carl Sagan's book Cosmos to my (then) little nephew. Within a couple of days his mother called me and chewed me out for giving their son "an atheistic book". They were so incensed that I was told that I was no longer welcome at their house...

[statichaos]

So long as they are not swinging their theological arms where my secular nose begins, I'm not too worried about it.

Unfortunately I've been harassed and bullied by various religious enthusiasts my whole life. My family is deeply religious, which is to say, fanatical. To cite some examples: my father once shit-canned by entire collection of books, believing they were "of the devil" (He was definitely a "man of one book"). When I expressed a desire to go to college, he quoted the Bible, saying: "The wisdom of this world is foolishness to god." He believed that a secular education was a waste of time, and very displeasing to his god, who evidently wants people to be ignorant. As a little kid I had some Ian Livingstone Choose Your Own Adventure books, which I was forced to get rid of because they were "evil". As a teenager he once tore down all my band posters, and destroyed all my CD's, which he thought were "satanic". One time, after having found a contradiction in the Bible, and pointing it out to my father, he blew his top and yelled at me, quoting the apostle Paul: "Who art thou, oh man, that repliest against god". This is the kind of insane upbringing that I experienced, courtesy of my lunatic father. And I haven't even scratched the surface. To this day certain members of my family (my father has since "given up the ghost") will have nothing to do with me, because I have rejected their religion. I once gave a copy of Carl Sagan's book Cosmos to my (then) little nephew. Within a couple of days his mother called me and chewed me out for giving their son "an atheistic book". They were so incensed that I was told that I was no longer welcome at their house...

That would cause a certain antipathy towards religion in any thinking person, I believe. It sounds like your secular nose was regularly broken.

[charlou]

Epictetus, I know where you're coming from ... in my case it was my mother. Religion is an ugly, ugly thing.

The average IQ is about 100, right?

(If you'll forgive the snip)

Yes, it is, and while it's difficult to assess intelligence, someone with an IQ of 100 is pretty fucking dim.

If anyone here (with one or two exceptions maybe) believes that their IQ is as low as 100, they should be reassessed to become pleasantly surprised.

Someone wrote somewhere here that religious belief was more common in those with an IQ of less than 125, which is a lot more respectable than 100, and atheists had IQs greater than this in general. I don't know if it's true, but it makes sense to me.

Does 'IQ' develop or expand with greater knowledge and understanding? I've always been intelligent, but I honestly feel, in hindsight, as though mine has over the past decade, and has coincided with thinking my way through many things, including to atheism.

[Trolldor]

As far as I recall:

IQ fluctuates, and as with all things will increase if you 'exercise your brain' - however, there aren't specific brain exercises (Much to the Chargrin of entrepeneurs) that say 'develop your prefrontal lobe', rather it's a combination of natural maturing and education. IQ is also not indicitive of potential, however there are strong links that suggest those with higher IQs are more likely to succeed, say in their chosen profession for example.

[hiyymer]

As far as I recall:

IQ fluctuates, and as with all things will increase if you 'exercise your brain' - however, there aren't specific brain exercises (Much to the Chargrin of entrepeneurs) that say 'develop your prefrontal lobe', rather it's a combination of natural maturing and education. IQ is also not indicitive of potential, however there are strong links that suggest those with higher IQs are more likely to succeed, say in their chosen profession for example.

That's right. Reason makes us richer, not better. People with reasons are dangerous. That's why atheists make people edgy.

[Pappa]

Other than a brief foray into Buddhism that I found decidedly unsatisfactory in my teens, I've always been entirely non-religious, and even while dabbling with Buddhism I was atheist. Neither of my parents were ever religious and as a kid, my dad's stock response to anything about religion was, "It's all bollocks". Religion was a non-issue for me. We prayed and sang hymns in school but that was something that was an insignificant routine to me and something I assumed had probably disappeared from non-religious schools nowadays.

When my son came home from school (aged about 5 or 6) spouting some crap about "God made all the trees and butterflies" I was concerned. Worried that his head teacher was some religious freak or something. I discovered that we have a law insisting kids get taught Christianity and have a daily act of Christian worship. I can request he is removed, but I remembered how weird we all thought the Jahovas were in school and figured it was better to not remove him.

It was because of that that I first posted on RDF, and over the years, I've read more and more about the stupidity of religion and the privileges it gets. Mostly, I've become more and more literate in atheist and anti-theist ideas, holes in theological arguments and similar stuff. I take for granted a view of religion that most people on the street are unaware of, and as a result I seem to have an irrational hatred of religion (from their point of view). Even when I discuss basic theological points like "why does god allow suffering?" mild-mannered folk assume I'm attacking religion or christians. But on top of that, I've found that I have also become very intolerant of religious ignorance and stupidity - it annoys me that religious people are so poorly versed in the same arguments - and it annoys me that they get so fucking offended at the most minor criticism of their faith on rational grounds.

My son, Felix, has become an arch-anti-theist. I'm really proud of the way he understand the reasoning behind why parody religious like the FSM have equal validity as 'real' ones. I'm proud of his irreverence towards holy days. He calls easter "chocolate egg day" and similar things.

The problem is, I find that my moderate religious inlaws and my old college friends and similar (who probably aren't even religious) all now regard me as the angry ranting atheist with a chip on his shoulder. The path I've taken has made it difficult for me to say anything at all positive about religion, and while I don't think I am aggressively anti-religious, I'm pretty sure they think I am simply because I criticise religion fairly often. Like the majority of the population, they seem to think that any minor critique of religion amounts to a massive offensive action.

I'm in a bit of a dilema. I've never been very good at keeping my mouth shut when I disagree with someone, particularly if I think they are using an utterly stupid line of reasoning. While I'm not generally that argumentative, I can be quite dismissive and a bit sarcastic in response to people when discussing religious matters and that can give the impression I'm rubbishing someone's beliefs. I don't particularly want to backtrack at all, but I do have to share a planet with religious people and everyone else too. Aside from not talking about religion, I'm not really sure what to do about it all.

Do the rest of you have this problem?

I was just re-reading this while looking for a post of mine and it struck me that I've chilled quite a lot on the topic since then. I still hold the same general opinion, but I'm more understanding of the fact that religiosity does not equate to stupidity or ignorance. I'm far more likely nowadays to just listen and not respond. I've learned how even reasonable criticism can be taken as an attack, and I'm not interested in the confrontation and or assumptions about me that can and does ensue from that. I also no longer feel that we're riding the wave of a secular/rationalist breakthrough.... I think I did in the past. Yes, things are changing for the better in certain ways, but there seem to be almost as many steps back as forward.

I still find it weird though that ordinary people treat me like an anti-religious militant if/when I criticise the Pope for being involved in the cover-up of child rape and sexual abuse. Mostly now, if the topic comes up I just try to explain as reasonably as I can that the Pope was complicit.

[klr]

...

I was just re-reading this while looking for a post of mine and it struck me that I've chilled quite a lot on the topic since then. I still hold the same general opinion, but I'm more understanding of the fact that religiosity does not equate to stupidity or ignorance. I'm far more likely nowadays to just listen and not respond. I've learned how even reasonable criticism can be taken as an attack, and I'm not interested in the confrontation and or assumptions about me that can and does ensue from that. I also no longer feel that we're riding the wave of a secular/rationalist breakthrough.... I think I did in the past. Yes, things are changing for the better in certain ways, but there seem to be almost as many steps back as forward.

I still find it weird though that ordinary people treat me like an anti-religious militant if/when I criticise the Pope for being involved in the cover-up of child rape and sexual abuse. Mostly now, if the topic comes up I just try to explain as reasonably as I can that the Pope was complicit.

"Militant religious person" = someone who bombs, kills, or threatens same - usually over a trifling difference of opinion.

"Militant atheist" = someone who openly says anything bad (and usually true) about religion.

[Pappa]

...

I was just re-reading this while looking for a post of mine and it struck me that I've chilled quite a lot on the topic since then. I still hold the same general opinion, but I'm more understanding of the fact that religiosity does not equate to stupidity or ignorance. I'm far more likely nowadays to just listen and not respond. I've learned how even reasonable criticism can be taken as an attack, and I'm not interested in the confrontation and or assumptions about me that can and does ensue from that. I also no longer feel that we're riding the wave of a secular/rationalist breakthrough.... I think I did in the past. Yes, things are changing for the better in certain ways, but there seem to be almost as many steps back as forward.

I still find it weird though that ordinary people treat me like an anti-religious militant if/when I criticise the Pope for being involved in the cover-up of child rape and sexual abuse. Mostly now, if the topic comes up I just try to explain as reasonably as I can that the Pope was complicit.

"Militant religious person" = someone who bombs, kills, or threatens same - usually over a trifling difference of opinion.

"Militant atheist" = someone who openly says anything bad (and usually true) about religion.

Yar.... how do you deal with that though?

(Which is pretty much what the OP was about.)

[klr]

...

I was just re-reading this while looking for a post of mine and it struck me that I've chilled quite a lot on the topic since then. I still hold the same general opinion, but I'm more understanding of the fact that religiosity does not equate to stupidity or ignorance. I'm far more likely nowadays to just listen and not respond. I've learned how even reasonable criticism can be taken as an attack, and I'm not interested in the confrontation and or assumptions about me that can and does ensue from that. I also no longer feel that we're riding the wave of a secular/rationalist breakthrough.... I think I did in the past. Yes, things are changing for the better in certain ways, but there seem to be almost as many steps back as forward.

I still find it weird though that ordinary people treat me like an anti-religious militant if/when I criticise the Pope for being involved in the cover-up of child rape and sexual abuse. Mostly now, if the topic comes up I just try to explain as reasonably as I can that the Pope was complicit.

"Militant religious person" = someone who bombs, kills, or threatens same - usually over a trifling difference of opinion.

"Militant atheist" = someone who openly says anything bad (and usually true) about religion.

Yar.... how do you deal with that though?

(Which is pretty much what the OP was about.)

You learn to bite your lip. Cultivate the patience of a saint (erm ....)

Getting some people to accept that there are such things as valid counter-arguments against religion (and that some people actually hold them) is a sloooooow process. It can take years.

[Coito ergo sum]

Addressing the OP -

I was never really religious, although as a small child my parents dragged me to church more or less a couple of times per month (we never regularly attended), so I do remember "believing" in god and trying to pray and such. However, we never went to church enough to be a part of that "community" and I never felt at home there. We were outsiders looking in, is how I always felt about it.

I remember muddling weird theories like "that we were in the end times" and Hal Lindsey's "Countdown to Armaggeddon" with the Bible and Protestantism, and I went through some of my childhood thinking that we were in the end times, or that it was just something to be accepted that we were. But, always underneath all that stuff, whispered the question "how do they know?"

Eventually, the doubt came to the fore, and i began challenging the Sunday School teachers with questions about Noah's Ark, why they could have more than one wife in the old testament (but not now), who Cain and Abel married, and all that sort of thing -- how Jonah survived inside a fish, and why infinite punishment was appropriate for mere disbelief. When the answers were invariably unsatisfactory non-answers, I began harboring a secret belief that it was all rubbish.

After I was "Confirmed" in my church, I was given the choice to attend or not attend church. I never hesitated. I never returned. I was agnostic for many years, thinking that true rationality required me to allow for the "maybe" that such-and-such is true. But, eventually, I harmonized atheism with agnosticism, and wallah, I became an atheist. I think mainly it took a build-up of "guts" to get past the innate fear of "what you're wrong?" - but, finally, I just said, "you know what -- I'm an atheist, because I don't believe in gods. I'm agnostic with respect to unfalsifiable claims, including unfalsifiable gods. But, since I don't believe in unfalsifiable claims, I am an agnostic atheist."

As for religion, I LOVE other people's religions. I am not angry about them. I love them. I want to know all about them, when people are willing to tell me. I have read every religious text I can find, all the major ones, cover to cover, and most of the minor ones. The fascinate me. If invited to a wedding, I always go to the house of worship in which it is held, and I grab hold of the materials in the pews/seats and out in the lobbies to give it a scan to learn what their views are.

I have watched the Vatican Easter and Christmas rituals on t.v. -- discussed religion on several occasions with a Catholic Monsignor, and sat for hours talking to a Hasidic jew about orthodox Judaism. I have sat and talked with Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons and many others. I am fascinated by the massive array of differing things that humans can hold as immutable truths. They believe things so strongly that I find myself reaching, and grasping, trying to find that something that they see that I don't. I feel there must be something they are seeing that I am missing. I have never been able to reach it, though.

I love religion, and I suspect I always will.

[rasetsu]

I share the love of religion as well, and not because I am religious, it's just another subject I enjoy.

I understand the adversarial aspect a little. A year or so back, I was depressed, bored, isolating, and sad. So I reread the archives at TalkOrigins.org, as I knew watching creationist arguments get skewered would lift my spirits. And that eventually led here, and to secular groups in my community. But it's not really motivated by anger. I suspect part of that is that I view the adversarial process as useful, but not ultimately definitive. I'm more interested in how minds singly and together reason, and what conclusions, or tools, can be drawn from that. And I've had the conviction for quite some time that religion is not an aberration or defect, nor is it a deliberately intended fault. And of late, my recent discoveries regarding the neuroscience and psychology of religion seem to abet my early intuitions. Religion is a byproduct of a healthy brain doing what healthy brains do as a part of a biological process known as evolution. While I certainly don't like to see or encourage suffering, it's hard to fault people individually for participating in natural processes that are largely beyond their control.

As I've stated elsewhere, because of my childhood and other factors, my values are somewhat skewed. If I were to list the top three, they would be thinking and truth, learning, and morality. I can become irritable at, or at least emotionally engaged in, concerns about bad thinking, regardless of context. However, as noted, the way people participate in religion leaves me with a large mitigating factor as applies to specifically religious thinking. And also, as with my views about religion and cognitive science, my views on many things take me away from some of the typical hot buttons. I don't view religion as a choice. I'm highly skeptical of the so-called critical thinking movement. I'm skeptical of the concept of rationality. And I'm skeptical of many of the approaches of humanism, specifically with regards to ethics. In a nutshell, the backbones which many people lean upon to justify their hatred of religion and religious people, in my world, cannot support that weight.

[camoguard]

I hate religion. It combines so many social effects that by disavowing the unreasonable faith that is required for the magical thinking part of Christianity, I lose access to a mechanism for social hockey games and pot lucks. Also, because religion is such a motivator, we have a religious sided party and a secular sided party to pick from. I want two parties with two different reasonable philosophies that are internally consistent. I can't have that. Why? Because religion is here. Possibly to stay. And today, my goat is got on that.